Constitution

[KettleWhistle]

So then do you contest that there is any democracy in the world outside of America? Even in Tokyo if 100 teenage girls blocked up traffick they would have a very hard few weeks in a Japanese Prison.

Umm, no they wouldn't. They'd be asked to stop, and then would be taken to a detention center, from which they'd be released to their parents, the moments the parents arrive to pick them up. Ditto in the States.

But gotta love this leftist argument: "some others commit injustice against their citizens, so we should too." Thanks for explaining that.

Besides hundreds of thousands of unconvicted Americans are in prison right now waiting for their trial because Americas courts are so overcrowded that it takes a year to get to trial, and most Americans can't afford bail.

Most American's can't afford bail? LOL LOL

"There is a huge difference between voting for Kerry and voting for Democrats. There is no such thing as voting for parties in the U.S. Every single congressman and senator is elected individually, based on his/her individual record of serving their constituency. A vote for John Kerry, is first and foremost a vote for John Kerry, and only then it is a vote for Democrats.

Israel has a party-list voting system. There are no votes for individual candidates, so there is no such thing candidate vote in Israel."

Go read some articles by actual Americans, Kerry is the most party line based politician in Washington. I am not saying that's a bad thing, I am just stating the fact. First there are Party Primaries to determine who leads the party, and then there are elections to determine which party leader is also leading the country. Just like in America. The only difference is that instead of saying the name of the winner of the party primaries it says the name of the party on the ballot. There is no difference, for gods sakes you imbecilic nut job around the world the Barak vs Sharon election was called that, not a Labor vs Likkud show down.

I am an American, and you have no clue what you're talking about. American legislators are accountable to their constituency. Swing voters, are the ones who matter the most, are those with no party loyalty. They vote for individual candidates from either party, not for a party. I voted for Jonh Edwards in the primaries, and for Bush in the final elections. Israelis vote for parties, nor for people. SO THERE IS NO CANDIDATE VOTING IN ISRAEL. Your attempts to spin doctor the truth are pathetic.

"Then France has problems with freedom of speach, just Israel does."

France has a problem with incitement to racial violence just like Israel does.

Israel does not have a problem with incitement to racial violence. There are tensions between Jews (the natives) and Arabs (the foreigners). Neither Jews nor Arabs are a race. And when was the last time in the past 10 years that Arabs were tossed in jail for years for inciting against Jews?

"The American law protects freedom of expression."

Go scream fire in a crowded cinema.

Hahaha Nice try, spin doctor!

"As for your other points, Kach is not a terrorist organization, nor is it racist. Although I deplore their ideas of establishing theocracy, I fully support the wonderful work they did in buying Jewish land from Arabs, and in paying Arabs to move out of the land of Israel."

Kach is a terrorist organization, and you are right it is not racist because Muslim is not a race, instead it is filled up with every form of religious bigotry there is.

Kach is not a terrorist organization. And it is not anti-Muslim. It is a strongly pro-Jewish organization with an ultra-religious agenda.

"WRONG. The branches are not separated. They are simply different divisions within the same system, and not independent entities."

Actually I am right. Your own argument contradicts yourself because you argue the judiciary is to powerful, and now you are saying it doesn't exist. Round around the libel goes which one he will chose nobody nows.

Actually, you are spin doctoring (but what else new!). I made no such arguments. I said that there are no separation of powers, a concept you obviously don't understand.

"I don't care what you think. You are an Arafat supporter, and a leftist. I am an atheist and a Jewish nationalist. I don't need to believe in God or in ancient myths to love my people and my native land. One has nothing to do with the other."

I am a patriotic Israeli Citizen, you are a Kahanist Scum, and probably a terrorist.

LOL, nice try, Arafat supporter.

"Greeks and Armenians do not control those lands. If they did, they would've had every right to remove the foreign populations from there. And these actions would in no way undermine their democracy."

In other words your answer is yes. So you are in favor of ethnically cleansing Turkey of Turks and giving the historically Greek parts of it to Greece and historically Armenian parts of it to the Armenians.

No, that's not what I said. But thanks for exposing the typical leftist spin doctoring to us, as you did with your rhetoric and trying to put words in my mouth.

[Overload]

I am done with this convoluted discussion. Its as though everyone is screaming at each other without listening.

[Mediocrates]

So to what end would you see or not see, a Constitution? You can yell at each other all you want - these are just specific points in the justice system that may need to be tweaked and so are not Constitutional issues at all. In other words the existence of a Constitution should not alter these issues much.


Bottom line, what would you expect an Israeli constitution to accomplish?

Moreover it's important to note that there are basic concepts ensconsed in a Constitution, in the US, which serve as the basis for interpretive rulings which form Case Law. If you don't expect to make much use of legal precident in Israel nor Constitutional interpretations from the bench to form that case law then the job of your Constitution would be much easier, trivial perhaps. See it really has to do with the sophistication of your legal system as much as the elegance of your government.

[Cato]

"Umm, no they wouldn't. They'd be asked to stop, and then would be taken to a detention center, from which they'd be released to their parents, the moments the parents arrive to pick them up. Ditto in the States.

But gotta love this leftist argument: "some others commit injustice against their citizens, so we should too." Thanks for explaining that."

I said in Tokyo, I didn't know the capital of Japan is in the United States. Besides I read in the New York times a few years ago about mentally ill children being kept in New Jersey Jails because the state doesn't have the money to place them in places to get care.

"Most American's can't afford bail? LOL LOL"

Actually that is true at least according to the US State Department. Most Americans who get arrested wait in prison for up to a year before trial.

"I am an American, and you have no clue what you're talking about. American legislators are accountable to their constituency."

So are Israeli legislators.

"Swing voters, are the ones who matter the most, are those with no party loyalty."

They either grant victory to the man who won the Republican Primaries, or the Man who won the Democrat Primaries. It is exactly the same in Israel. As I said nobody advertised Mitzna vs Sharon, as Labor vs Likkud it was advertised as Sharon vs Mitzna, nobody advertised Barak vs Bibi as labor vs likkud either. You are really grasping at straws.

"I voted for Jonh Edwards in the primaries, and for Bush in the final elections. Israelis vote for parties, nor for people. SO THERE IS NO CANDIDATE VOTING IN ISRAEL. Your attempts to spin doctor the truth are pathetic."

Nope you are the only spin doctor in this room. You wanted Edwards to be the leader of the democrats and to vote for him for president, and when Kerry won the primaries instead you voted Republican. In Israel the party presents it's candidate, which unexpectedly was Amir Peretz. You are grasping at straws. THERE IS NO SECRET AS TO WHO IS SOMEONE VOTING FOR IN ISRAEL WE DO NOT VOTE PARTIES WE VOTE PEOPLE.

"Israel does not have a problem with incitement to racial violence."

Yes it does

" There are tensions between Jews (the natives) and Arabs (the foreigners). "

Niether are foriegners.

"Neither Jews nor Arabs are a race."

So you are saying jews are a religion instead of an ethnicity instead of your usual stance, round and round opinions go which one Kettle will adopt nobody knows.

"And when was the last time in the past 10 years that Arabs were tossed in jail for years for inciting against Jews?"

2004 raid into Gaza Strip

"Hahaha Nice try, spin doctor!"

Go do it, I am sure that all Americans will understand that you did not mean fire literally. Listen terrorists with an extremist Kahanist sympathies like you killed our Prime Minister, we need to take all death threats against Prime Ministers seriously.

"Kach is not a terrorist organization. And it is not anti-Muslim. It is a strongly pro-Jewish organization with an ultra-religious agenda."

And there is no anti-semitism in the Arab World then if they aren't a terrorist anti-non jewish organization.

"Actually, you are spin doctoring (but what else new!). I made no such arguments. I said that there are no separation of powers, a concept you obviously don't understand. "

For the last time you ignorant Kahanist, THERE IS A SEPERATION OF POWERS. WHy the hell do you think the Knesset and Government are constantly losing cases in the Supreme Court? Can it be because the Judiciary is independent and does not bow down to the executive or legislative?

"LOL, nice try, Arafat supporter."

I am a patriotic citizen, and you are a Kahanist enemy of the state. When Peretz wins the elections I will spam the victory headline all over here to rub it in your face.

"No, that's not what I said. But thanks for exposing the typical leftist spin doctoring to us, as you did with your rhetoric and trying to put words in my mouth."

You are right, all you said is " If they did, they would've had every right to remove the foreign populations from there. And these actions would in no way undermine their democracy."

Seems like you are a fascist to me. So all the Greeks and Armenians need to do in your eyes to have a legitimate claim to land that was theirs 100 years ago is wage a war with Turkey. Sounds like you are a might is right jurk.

I say I am looking forward to the next round of elections when Likkud gets only 10 seats, while Labor gets 75 at least.

[mbczion]

Cato wrote:

That sounds a lot like the complaints American Conservatives have against their own Supreme Court, you know Bush's constant demonization of "Activist Judges".

The difference is that, in Israel, the system of government (specifically the way the Supreme Court judges are handpicked and the way the SC picks and chooses laws according to a specific agenda) has been criticized by all political spectors, from left to right, secular to religious, Arab to Jewish, not just by die-hard conservatives....Survey after survey shows that the majority of Israelis do not have confidence in the instituions running this country (with the SC being on the bottom)....

Cato wrote:

Democracy means the people are represented. In Israel the people are represented. Besides most Israelis in poll after poll have shown support for Sharon's agenda, and have expressed support for unnilateral withdrawal.

First of all, I am not talking specifically about the unilateral withdrawal, but the way the system works in general....I was just using Sharon's dictatorial tendencies, since he has been elected as an example of how flawed our system is....At any rate, the people are NOT represented, but parties are elected, the leader whose party has the most votes becomes prime minister and a bunch of wheeling and dealing goes on behind the whole country's back- you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours, you back disengagement (for example) and I will make you mininster of so and so, you don't back it and your fired, etc. This is not called "representing the people" but each Knesset member doing what's best for him and what he needs to do in order to keep his seat....Much coercion goes on when it comes to forming coalitions....BTW, if in poll after poll most Israelis had shown support for unilateral withdrawal, then why was Sharon afraid to hold a national referendum and why did he ignore the Likud "referendum" (which was more waste of tax payer $$$$ if Sharon was going to ignore the results anyway)?

Cato wrote:

But that isn't why Israelis voted for him, it was his anti-terrorist skills not his anti-unnilateral withdrawal statements that gave him victory.

I don't know why those who voted for Sharon voted for him....I didn't go door to door asking people, but I DO KNOW on what platform Sharon ran and it was definately anti-unilateral withdrawal....The fact that Sharon has anti-terrorist skills was besides the point in his campaign....Maybe that is why he won, maybe not, but that was NOT his platform, at least not in the ads I saw....

Cato wrote:

It was Ariel Sharon who was elected not Ramat Kal.

Yes, Ariel Sharon was elected....To be prime minister, not a dictator!!!!

Cato wrote:

So then do you contest that there is any democracy in the world outside of America? Even in Tokyo if 100 teenage girls blocked up traffick they would have a very hard few weeks in a Japanese Prison. Besides hundreds of thousands of unconvicted Americans are in prison right now waiting for their trial because Americas courts are so overcrowded that it takes a year to get to trial, and most Americans can't afford bail.

All I know is that I have lived many years in America and many years in Israel, so I am comparing these two countries....I don't know what would happen if 100 teenage girls blocked traffic in Tokyo, France, London, Greece, or anywhere else, but America....In America they would be read their rights to an attorney (and would be provided one if they could not afford one), their right to keep silent, anything they say can and will be used against them, etc. and would not be able to be in prison for more than 24 hours, without having spoken with their attorney and had a chance to plead their case in court....They would be provided with adequate food, a blanket, and have visiting rights by their parents....In America, you do not get put into prison for an extended period of time (i.e. having to post bail) until you and your attorney have had your say in court and the court have decided that you pose a flight risk or a danger to society, due to the type of crime you have commited or your past records (first time offender or not)....As opposed to here, where these teenage girls were held in prison for several weeks without having had a chance to meet with their attorney, have their say in court, inadequate food, no blanket, no visiting rights by immediate family, etc. So, to answer your question, if this would happen in any other country in the world, except America, then I DO contest that there is any democracy in the world outside of America....

Cato wrote:

So how is wanting to continue the occupation democratic? Edit-I never said I aprove of the radical left, I whole heartedly condemn the radical left for it's calling Israel Nazi and it's hypocritical and openly anti-semitic analysis of the situation. I have never said I approve of the far left, or an increasingly anti-semitic European Left, however that said it does not mean I support occupation either.

You will have to ask the UN, the UNRWA, and the Arab countries why they continue to leave the Palestinians in the refugee camps, rather than letting them integrate into any one of their 22 respective countries, just like the Jews forced to flee Arab countries in the early 50's integrated into Israeli society (albeit only after many years in transit camps and persecution by the founding askenazic elite)....I can't answer that....Well, I am glad to hear YOU don't support the radical left and their self-hating ilk....

Cato wrote:

Look the base text of the Torah is still the same as it ever was, and since I know hebrew I understand it, a theocracy in Israel would be no more respectful of humanity then the theocracy in Iran.

You might be fluent in hebrew, but you have much to learn about Judaism....Anyone with more than a gan (nursery school) education of Judaism knows that there is both a written law (Torah) and an oral law (Talmud) and that they go hand in hand....Where do you think the justice system in most of the western countries of today comes from? Have you ever studied Tractate Sanhedrin of the Talmud? Where do you think the concept of innocent until proven guilty comes from? Why do you think America prides themselves on having founded their country and government on Judeo-Christian principles? Did you know that many law schools, including many with predominantly non-Jewish student bodies, require their students to take a beginners class on Talmud because so much of the justice system comes from the Talmud plus the thinking process of a lawyer is so similar to that of the sages in the Talmud? Cato, I invite you with ALL MY HEART, when you come back from Greece to join me for some Gemarra (Talmud) studies....After all, if you are willing to spend a year in Greece to "improve yourself as an Israeli citizen" (as you stated in another post), why not try learning a thing or to about your faith as well as the official religion of your country?

Mediocrates wrote:

So to what end would you see or not see, a Constitution? You can yell at each other all you want - these are just specific points in the justice system that may need to be tweaked and so are not Constitutional issues at all. In other words the existence of a Constitution should not alter these issues much.

Bottom line, what would you expect an Israeli constitution to accomplish?

What would be in the constitution that is not already covered in the laws that are out there? I think the system needs to be tweaked more than anything else? I don't know if an Israeli constitution would accomplish much other than maybe having all the laws and precedents in one place, rather than scattered all over in many places, like they are now....

[KettleWhistle]

They either grant victory to the man who won the Republican Primaries, or the Man who won the Democrat Primaries. It is exactly the same in Israel. As I said nobody advertised Mitzna vs Sharon, as Labor vs Likkud it was advertised as Sharon vs Mitzna, nobody advertised Barak vs Bibi as labor vs likkud either. You are really grasping at straws.

So you mean to say that each candidate from every party in Israel is voted for individually, and not a party list? Or are you going to spin doctor the UNDENIABLE FACT that Israelis can only vote for party lists, and not for individual candidates, and hence have NO CANDIDATE VOTING? Well, of course you will, LOL.

" There are tensions between Jews (the natives) and Arabs (the foreigners). "

Niether are foriegners.

Israel is Jewish native land. All who aren't Jews are foreigners.

"Neither Jews nor Arabs are a race."

So you are saying jews are a religion instead of an ethnicity instead of your usual stance, round and round opinions go which one Kettle will adopt nobody knows.

Hey, here's another lie from Cato! But would anyone expect anything else?

Jews are an ethnicity. So are Arabs. And ethnicities are not races. Not to mention that Jews and Arabs are both Caucasians and belong to the same race.

"Kach is not a terrorist organization. And it is not anti-Muslim. It is a strongly pro-Jewish organization with an ultra-religious agenda." Listen terrorists with an extremist Kahanist sympathies like you killed our Prime Minister, we need to take all death threats against Prime Ministers seriously.

Are you talking about the traitor Rabin, who was killed by an honorable and concerned citizen, Igal Amir? Just to make sure I understand you correctly, are we talking about the same Rabin, who, together with his business partner, Yassir Arafat, is responsible for the deaths of all these people, and then some: http://www.geocities.com/israeli_eyes/

I am a patriotic citizen, and you are a Kahanist enemy of the state. When Peretz wins the elections I will spam the victory headline all over here to rub it in your face.

Not even most terrorism-supporting leftists that voted for Rabin/Arafat/Peres camp in the past vote for Avoda anymore. Scum like Peretz can make all the noise they want, but the only thing they ever accomplish is killing Israelis and ruining the economy. We'll see how many votes he's gonna get, and in the unlikely event that he'd win, I'll make sure to post the headlines about the crumbling economy and dead Israelis. I'm sure you'll cheer to those, as all of you Arafat-supporters do.

"No, that's not what I said. But thanks for exposing the typical leftist spin doctoring to us, as you did with your rhetoric and trying to put words in my mouth."

You are right, all you said is " If they did, they would've had every right to remove the foreign populations from there. And these actions would in no way undermine their democracy."

Nice try taking what I posted out of context. Keep on, Arafat supporter.

[nuttie]

I truly believe that most problems with the Israeli democracy boil down to the electoral system. It must be changed.

It seems to me that the preferable system for electing the Knesset is regional representation, and I would like to invite the Hebrew speakers among you to a discussion blog I opened on this subject

here

*

[MicroBalrog]

Does Israel needs to have Constitution?

How it will benefit Israel as state? What are the implications to have one?

Yes, it is a marvellous idea:

1. Israel needs to have separation of the different arms of government. The situation today, where a Prime Minister MUST have a majority in thE Knesset, and thus, any elected leader of the Executive also controls the Legislature, is hugely faulted.

2. Israel needs to legally define the authority of the government and limits to it, as well as (I suggesT) some form of Federalism.

3. Britain does several key documents qualifying as 'written constitutional law' such as the British Bill of Rights etc. To the best of my knowledge, this cannot be repealed by Parliament.

http://www.fastload.org/br/British_c...ional_law.html

4. Basic laws today can be changed with a vote of 61 out of 120 Knesset members. This is too easy. One should have something like the US does, where a vote of 2/3rds of Senate and congress and 3/4th of the states are required.

5. It is necessary that the Constitution incorporate a strong BoR.

This seems to be a good one, and the original nation who came up with it isn't using it, anyway:

http://jpfo.org/billrights.htm

[Yonathan]

BS"D

The Supreme Court functions as a shadow government in Israel. The Court makes up the law as it goes along, and according to its own wishes. It is guided primarily by its desire to maintain its power over the country. Yet, it is also influenced by European public opinion, Western, academic elite, sensibilities, and, of course, the all-encompassing hatred for all things Jewish (Read: all things related to Torah).

What happened to Arutz 7 in its attempt at "legal," radio broadcasting is a good example. After the K'nesset granted Arutz 7 its permit to broadcast, the Supreme Court intervened, claiming that the K'nesset legalized the radio station...illegally. ???

The Israeli Supreme Court maintains power through its self-perpetuation. New justices are appointed by a committee, comprised of the Chief Justice, one other justice, the attorney general, and a couple of token K'nesset members.

Truly democratic "checks and balances" are simply nonexistent in Israel.

No matter whom we elect this year (28 Adar 5766), or any other year, Aharon Baraq YSh"W, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, will continue to be our president, Shimon Peres YSh"W will be our Prime Minister, Yossi Beilin YSh"W will be the Ambassador-at-large and "moral conscience," etc. (May God help us!)

The only reason the K'nesset is now able to consider a possible "constitution," is because the left will be able to manipulate the outcome. A constitution will gain points with the U. S. AND give even more "legitimacy" to the Supreme Court, and to the accompanying Baraq-Peres shadow dictatorship.

This is the Erev Rav in action.

What are we going to do about it?