Kadima presents party platform

[mbczion]

This last sentence of yours is what brought a smile onto my face...
Who are the young Israelis who stay here in Israel and fight to hold on to this country?
The young Israelis who serve in the kosher-observant IDF are by large secular, or national-religious (kipa sruga). The Strong Israeli economy, the Israeli scientific and high tech achievements are 100% result of secular initiative and sweat.
Can you imagine what will happen to the state of Israel if everyone suddenly became orthodox Jews?

One more thing: I don't recall seeing hords of orthodox religious Jews flock to Israel. The biggest community of orthodox Jews does not live in Israel, it lives in America. I don't see them making any kind of contribution to the survival of the Jewish state. The biggest waves of immigrants to Israel in the last 15 years were by large secular.

Based on all the above, I seriously doubt the role of Torah and orothodox Judaism as a magnet for young Israelis to stay here in Israel. I think other factors are a little more important to them.

More and more young Israelis are learning to speak fluent english and attending universities overseas....

Why? Because the standard of living is higher in the rest of the Western World and you don't have to do miluim a month each year.... If Israel is just going to be another secular, democratic country of all its citizens, then what is the point of moving to or staying in Israel and fighting for it's survival? So we can speak hebrew?

As far as Orthodox Jews making aliyah, the overwhelming majority of Jews from Western Countries making aliyah out of ideology are Orthodox (especially from North America, check out Nefesh be'Nefesh statistics)....

Regarding serving in the army, the majority of national religious males of enlistment age volunteer for combat units....On the other hand, the percentage of secular of enlistment age who are dodging the draft is constantly on the rise....

Regarding the strong Israeli economy, the back-bone of high-tech in Jerusalem are english speaking, kippa wearing entrepreneurs....Another big part of Israel's economy, exporting bugfree salad to Europe (a big success owed to the Jews of Gaza) was destroyed overnight, when our government expelled the Jews from Gaza....

Secular Jews might have founded Israel, but what gives Jews a reason to stay in Israel, rather than leaving for other Western countries is that Israel is a Jewish state, not just another Western country where the national language happens to be hebrew....

I don't think it is a coincidence that the overwhelming majority of Jews who make yerida from Israel are secular....

[Mercury]

... big part of Israel's economy, exporting bugfree salad to Europe ...

[mbczion]

Judaism is NOT a "people." It is a religion. It is a traditional religion of the Jewish people. And one can practice it "in the middle of nowhere." But what you are talking about is generally correct, as the process of conversion was intended for the strict purpose of intermarriage, and only when apropos. It is only the modern revisionism that twisted it to be something that can be done routinely, as it twisted the idea of the Jewish nation to make it out to be based on religion, rather than on common descent.

If a Jew is an atheist and does not keep Shabbat or Kashrut or eats on Yom Kippur, is he still a Jew? Of course he is....Clearly, Judaism is more than just a religion....As a people, the only difference between us and Gentiles is the Torah....That is the "religious aspect" of Judaism....However, an individual Jew remains a Jew for all time, even if he forsakes G-d and Torah....That is the "peoplehood" aspect of Judaism....

[mbczion]

Mercury, check out the following from IsraelNationalNews.com:

After years of producing bug-free lettuce and other vegetables for Jewish farmers, the sands of Gaza have reverted to their old ways. PA farmers report failure in keeping the bugs away.


The Gaza Arabs who have taken over the hothouses of what used to be Gush Katif reported to the Israel-PA Coordination Office that they have failed in raising bug-free vegetables.

In addition, the PA workers complain that their wages from their compatriots and brethren are significantly lower now than what they received from the Israelis.

Arutz-7's Haggai Huberman reports that the Jews of Gush Katif operated 3,600 dunams (890 acres) of hothouses as of last year, of which the PA - with international help - has managed to activate three-fourths. The Arabs had hoped to build on the Jews' success, selling to the market the Israelis had built up over the years. The bug-free vegetables were particularly attractive to the religious and hareidi-religious publics, for reasons of kashrut.

The Jews who first arrived in Gaza some 30 years ago were repeatedly told by the Arabs who welcomed them that the land was "cursed" and that they would never succeed agriculturally. Benny Ginzberg, standing last May in the large Katif-Atzmona dairy he managed, pointed at the houses of the Arab city of Khan Yunis, several hundred meters away, and said,
"Those houses have been here since before the Six Day War. If they wanted this land, what stopped them from spreading out to here before? ... When we first came, they told us that we were crazy for even trying to build something here. 'The land is cursed,' they told us. Well, we built something, something very great..."

Ma'yan Yadai, a 27-year-old mother of two who was thrown out of Gush Katif - she was originally a Croatian Catholic who converted to Judaism, fled Yugoslavia, and moved to Netzer Hazani - spoke about Gush Katif before a gathering of the National Council of Young Israel in New York recently. She said,
"It is difficult for me to believe that this obviously blessed area is the very same area that our Moslem neighbors called the ‘cursed land’ of El G’erara. They have told me that nobody lived in this area from the time that the last Jews left because there was not enough rain, and nothing could grow properly. They were happy when the Jews returned because the rain started again, and the land began to produce."

Farmers in Gush Katif were considered among Israel's most successful; their total annual exports totaled $100 million, or 15% of Israel's agricultural exports. Of Israel's exports abroad, Gush Katif exported to Europe 95% of the bug-free lettuce and greens, 70% of the organic vegetables, 60% of the cherry tomatoes, and 60% of the geraniums. Israel's largest plant nursery was in the Gush Katif community of Atzmonah. Other Katif produce included spices, green, red and yellow peppers, celery and more.

Israel's Defense Ministry sources told Huberman that the Palestinian Authority farmers were unable to develop the techniques necessary for bug-free produce.

Some of the original Israeli greenhouses were damaged or destroyed by Arabs immediately after Israel withdrew, but the PA was able to rebuild them. As of now, the only crop the Arabs are raising successfully is strawberry.

Do you still say ?

[redcake]

It's a bit like saying people visit Hawaii for the surf and not the beach. Israel has always been of importance BECAUSE of it's religious interest. When Secular Israelis aren't on message boards, they are sure to have visited all the Religious landmarks at some point. They might not remember an Israel without Oakley sunglasses, or Shopping Malls, but those aren't the things that Israel's largely secular Army was defending during it's first 35+ years of Statehood.

There's absolutely no explanation why Jews would have established a modern State there if it weren't for the Geneaological importance of the land....and your ancestry was Religious at some point. It's like listening to people redefine the question so they can give a safe answer. Israel's citizens live on borrowed land, of religious importance, under the pretense of a Jewish homeland. End of story. No lack of observance, or influx of non-observant Jews will change the foundation of Israel. That a huge amount of Secular Jews were in on the ground floor only demonstrates their ability to be non-observant and still embrace many of the things intolerant Secular Jews now deem as a public enemy #1.

[genghis_tom]

As a people, the only difference between us and Gentiles is the Torah...

Hey! I'm not a Jew, but I consider the Torah part of the scriptures. Granted, I don't memorize it, but I read it.

[Mercury]

Mercury, check out the following from IsraelNationalNews.com:

Do you still say ?

The total value of israeli export is 35 billion. The value of agricultural export from Gaza according to your source is 100 million (or less than 0.3% of the total). I wonder how much of this is made by the bugfree salad.

[mbczion]

The total value of israeli export is 35 billion. The value of agricultural export from Gaza according to your source is 100 million (or less than 0.3% of the total). I wonder how much of this is made by the bugfree salad.

It's not just about percentage, but something that Israel was known for overseas and a very important asset to many Israelis (Gush Katif Salad)....
A very important part of our economy was destroyed with the Gaza expulsion....That is a sad fact, even if you want to laugh at it....

[sharonbn]

More and more young Israelis are learning to speak fluent english and attending universities overseas....

Totally FALSE.
in the last 15 years, the number of Isaeli academic students has risen by more 200% percent. The boom in academic studies is attributed to the education reform of Rabin's gov't, as well as the immigration waves of the 90s from FSU. The new situation forced the Committee of High Education to open a new academic institution in Israel - The college. Since 1992, 15 colleges were established in Israel. (source: Israeli education ministry and CHE)

Moreover, The prestige and reputation of Israeli universities as research centers is in constant rise. Evident to that is recent winning of Nobel Prize by Israeli scientists in areas of Chemistry and Economics. Prestige and reputation (not salary) is the first factor that draws students to academic institutions.

Why? Because the standard of living is higher in the rest of the Western World and you don't have to do miluim a month each year.... If Israel is just going to be another secular, democratic country of all its citizens, then what is the point of moving to or staying in Israel and fighting for it's survival? So we can speak hebrew?

In the western World you don't have to do Miluim, true.
However, in Israel, you will not lose your job because you're a Jew, you won't hear "Juden, go back to Auschwitz" shouted at you or get beaten while walking the street, your children will not be harassed ib school... in short - you will not experience anti-semitism. in 2004, 450 new immigrants came from France to Israel. ALL of them said that the cause for making aliah was - anti-semitism.

As far as Orthodox Jews making aliyah, the overwhelming majority of Jews from Western Countries making aliyah out of ideology are Orthodox (especially from North America, check out Nefesh be'Nefesh statistics)....

Perhaps this is true regarding America, I don't know. What I DO know is that this statement is not true regarding western Europe. perhaps you need to revise your definition of "Western Countries".

Regarding serving in the army, the majority of national religious males of enlistment age volunteer for combat units....On the other hand, the percentage of secular of enlistment age who are dodging the draft is constantly on the rise....

The majority of soldiers who serve in volunteering units are secular. Regardless of trends, IDF and the state of Israel as a whole could not have survived one day without the secaulr Israelis. That is an undisputed fact.

Regarding the strong Israeli economy, the back-bone of high-tech in Jerusalem are english speaking, kippa wearing entrepreneurs....Another big part of Israel's economy, exporting bugfree salad to Europe (a big success owed to the Jews of Gaza) was destroyed overnight, when our government expelled the Jews from Gaza....

I have absolutely ZERO clue where you got this picture that you describe.

1) I have worked in Jer'm branch of Amdocs, the largest s/w company in Israel. The branch houses some 800 employees. 9 out of 10 there are secular (almost half are immigrants from FSU). We worked in Har Hotzvim, the high tech industrial area of Jer'm. I used to go out and eat lunch in that area every day. I have not seen what you describe, far from it. Evidence to that is that the majority of restaurants and cafes in the area were not kosher.

2) Jerusalem is not the center of high tech industry in Israel. Far from it. the jer'm high tech industry is negligible compared to the centers in Tel Aviv, Hertzlia and Gush Dan in general. So whatever picture exists in Jer'm, it does not say anything about the Israeli industry as a whole.

regarding the flourishing agriculture of Gush Katif, I do not know how successful that industry was. I can only say that in my eyes, an industry that is built on military occupied territory, an industry that is based on the oppression and exploitation of foreign people, an industry that express blatant and cruel colonialism imperialism and expansionism - That industry does not deserve to survive.

Secular Jews might have founded Israel, but what gives Jews a reason to stay in Israel, rather than leaving for other Western countries is that Israel is a Jewish state, not just another Western country where the national language happens to be hebrew....

a country where the national language "happens" to be Hebrew? talk about historical distortion.....

The Hebrew language was [u]unspoken/[u] in the Jewish world as long as it remained orthodox. The language was considered "holy" and only permitted while reading the holy scriptures. The revival of the language is one of THE important achievements of secular Zionists. Their slogan was "A Hebrew person should speak Hebrew". The most fierce battle was in the education system. Schools and especially universities in Israel used German and French as teaching languages. this was the situation well into the 1920s. The Zionist movement advocated that Hebrew is essential to the national revival of the Jewish people. The Hebrew university in Jer'm, was founded in 1925 and was the first academic institution that exclusively used Hebrew in its teaching and research.

If you like more info: http://www.huji.ac.il/huji/eng/aboutHU_history_e.htm

btw, to this day, majority of orthodox Jews do not speak Hebrew as daily language.

[KettleWhistle]

If a Jew is an atheist and does not keep Shabbat or Kashrut or eats on Yom Kippur, is he still a Jew? Of course he is....Clearly, Judaism is more than just a religion....

If an Irish is an atheist and does not keep whatever traditions Irish Catholics keep, is he still an Irish?

Judaism is just a religion. By definition. Following or not following it has no effect on one's genetic makeup.

[KettleWhistle]

regarding the flourishing agriculture of Gush Katif, I do not know how successful that industry was. I can only say that in my eyes, an industry that is built on military occupied territory, an industry that is based on the oppression and exploitation of foreign people, an industry that express blatant and cruel colonialism imperialism and expansionism - That industry does not deserve to survive.

If I didn't know that you <edited by moderator>, I'd think you were talking about Jewish native lands occupied by the foreign Arab terrorists.

[mbczion]

Sharonbn, It is a fact that 20,000 Israelis are making yerida to America alone each year (the overwhelming majority of them, secular)....And then there are more making yerida to Canada, Australia, and Europe....It is also a fact that Israel had to plead with Germany and the United States to limit the number of immigrants from the former SU immigrate to their countries, so they
would come to Israel....These countries agreed....They account for the majority of the immigrants who came here in the last fifteen years being secular....However, if you survey the percentage of immigrants who have come here out of ideology, rather than necessity, you would find the overwhelming majority being Orthodox....BTW, I also consider most European countries to be Western....

Is is also a fact that the national religious are represented in the combat units in the IDF way more than their percentage in the general population and specifically, in the elite Golani, thirty percent of the soldiers live in Judea and Samaria, while only 2% of the general population lives in Judea and Samaria....It was not so long ago in a column in the Jerusalem Post that secularist Amos Atza-El noted that you are more likely to find modern Orthodox, rather than kibbutzniks in the crack units of the IDF today....Everyone from the anti-religious Shinui party to the religious parties and everyone in between recognizes that the kippa seruga remain the most motivated soldiers today....

I venture to say that if you were to take a survey in just about any modern Orthodox community in Israel, you would find at least one breadwinner of every household more likely to be working in high-tech, medicine, accounting, law, etc.- certainly a much higher percentage than the general average population....

Regarding Gaza having been "an industry on occupied land that didn't deserve to survive", then, using that logic, maybe Israel as a whole does not deserve to survive....More Arabs fleed from Tel-Aviv/Yafo and Haifa when Israel was established in 1948 then from Judea, Samaria, and Gaza....So maybe all those high-tech industries in Tel-Aviv have no right to survive....If we have no right to Jerusalem, Hebron, Bet-El, or Gaza, then we certainly have no right to Tel-Aviv, Hertzeliya, and Haifa....In the eyes of the Arabs, all of Israel is occupied territory and returning to the '67 borders will not pacify their hunger for all of "Palestine"....

I don't know where you get your statistics about most religious Jews in Israel not speaking hebrew....Maybe a small percentage of the Ultra-Orthodox in Bnei Brak and Mea Shearim, who don't recognize the State of Israel anyway, refuse to speak hebrew and only speak Yiddish, but most Orthdox (even ultra-Orthodox) in Israel today speak hebrew....Even the minority of UO who conduct their classes in school in Yiddish speak hebrew because they know that in order to survive in Israel, they need to speak the national language....Only pockets of radically anti-zionists like Neteuri Karta and some Satmar refuse to speak hebrew....

For the record, I do not advocate all Jews in Israel becoming Orthodox or for Israel to become a halachic state, but on the other hand, if Israel was to become just another secular state of all its citizens, then there will not be much motivation for young Israelis (especially, secular Israelis) to stay and fight for Israel, especially if they are fed propaganda like "Israel was born in sin...." or "Israel is a colonial occupier", etc. We need to a) believe we belong here (and the only reason we belong here is because this IS our homeland because it says so in the Torah) and b) have a Jewish state to fight for, not just another western democracy to fight for....

For the most part secular Jews built Israel and secular zionism served it's purpose, but now Israel needs some soul to survive....Without soul, Israel will not make it because the fact is that Israel is not necessarily a safer place for Jews to be, certainly not the easiest place to live....You might not hear "Yuden, go back to Aushwitz...." in Israel, but the fact is you are more likely to get blown up on a bas or shot while waiting for a tremp, because you are a Jew, in Israel then the rest of the world....Also, in America they have very strict laws about firing people because of their race, religion, etc. and place of work have to accomodate observant people of all faiths, otherwise they risk class action law suits....So, you are no more likely to lose your job in America for being a Jew than in Israel, although I do love the fact that the national holidays are the Jewish holidays (one of the many reasons I prefer living in Israel than the galut)....

In disagreement but respect

[Mediocrates]

It's nonsensical to believe that attacking one another's base belief system will lead anywhere. I chose that word specifically. Israel and everything you and everyone else thinks about it is not a set of beliefs, it's a belief system like which political party to adhere to, the name of your god and so on. It is believed without question and defended blindly with no appeal to reason or fact. To thos who have an ax to grind with Israel or some group of Jews they dislike, it doesn't matter what reality looks like. To the settlers, no appeal to rational practicalities means anything. Bismarck said once that politics is the art of the possible. And this is why there will never be a stable solution for Israel; because no one even wants to look for that which is politically possible. They just want to scream and be victorious.

[Mediocrates]

Sharon indirectly says Jerusalem will be divided:

http://www.israelnn.com/news.php?id=94784

From news article:

"In theory, Gayer says, Sharon would accept a Palestinian state in Gaza and 90 percent of the West Bank, and a compromise on Jerusalem, in exchange for peace. But the Israeli leader does not believe Palestinians will be able to deliver peace or make other compromises—like forgoing the right of refugees to return to their old homes in Israel—in his lifetime (Sharon is 78). In the meantime, Sharon wants to "lay the contours of an agreement with the Palestinians," according to Gayer, by creating a Palestinian state in half the West Bank and implementing confidence-building measures."

Gayer is Sharon's campaign pollster

Then Sharon contradicted these statements:

From news article:

Sharon appeared on state-run television almost immediately, denying the accuracy of the claims. "The remarks attributed to Kalman Gayer absolutely contradict my positions and my views," Sharon said. "If those remarks were indeed made, they were made by Kalman Gayer alone and they are complete nonsense. United Jerusalem will remain Israel’s capital forever." Sharon then reiterated his commitment to the Road Map plan.

But Sharon has a history of being a little crafty, yes?

But these are the best:

From news article:

MK Uzi Landau, who recently bowed out of the Likud leadership race and endorsed Binyamin Netanyahu, said, "We know from past experience that whenever the prime minister rushed to deny something – it is certainly true."

Labor MK Yitzchak Herzog said the whole story was just another manufactured story from the Kadima Party's public relations team, aimed at distracting the public from its lack of a social program.

[sharonbn]

Sharonbn, It is a fact that 20,000 Israelis are making yerida to America alone each year (the overwhelming majority of them, secular) ....And then there are more making yerida to Canada, Australia, and Europe....

It is no wonder that the majority of Israelis leaving Israel are secular. The majority of Israelis are secular. What we need to consider is whether the "overwhelming" portion of secular yordim is greater than the portion of secular in the general populace.

Well, I went to the site of Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics. They do keep records of immigrants to Israel, but nowhere there is slicing of immigrants according to "ideology" or "religios affiliation" or "strength of faith" or anything similar.

There is also absolutely NO records of movement out of Israel. no numbers, no chart and certainly no slicing according to any religous definition.

So what I am asking is where did you take the "facts" that you state above? or perhaps it is "common" knowledge?

you're welcome to search the CBS site yourself:
http://www1.cbs.gov.il/reader

It is also a fact that Israel had to plead with Germany and the United States to limit the number of immigrants from the former SU immigrate to their countries, so they
would come to Israel....These countries agreed....They account for the majority of the immigrants who came here in the last fifteen years being secular....However, if you survey the percentage of immigrants who have come here out of ideology, rather than necessity, you would find the overwhelming majority being Orthodox....BTW, I also consider most European countries to be Western....

That is the first time I heard that Israel "pleaded" other coutries to close their gates so that immigrants will come to Israel. I would very very much like to see the news report that you based this "fact".

I venture to say that if you were to take a survey in just about any modern Orthodox community in Israel, you would find at least one breadwinner of every household more likely to be working in high-tech, medicine, accounting, law, etc.- certainly a much higher percentage than the general average population....

OK, its time to end this farce.
I never heard anyone in Israel, including in the "modern Orthodox community" who claims that these people have "higher percentage" than secular in high tech industries.

I have been working in the high tech industry for 16 years. I know first hand how many kipa sruga there are. There are ~10% of them, which is more or less the same as their percentage in the general populace. Their contribution is welcome of course, but they hardly amount to any critical mass. The high tech industry in Israel, incl' bio technology, nano technology, etc. are secular in their charecteristics.

Regarding Gaza having been "an industry on occupied land that didn't deserve to survive", then, using that logic, maybe Israel as a whole does not deserve to survive....More Arabs fleed from Tel-Aviv/Yafo and Haifa when Israel was established in 1948 then from Judea, Samaria, and Gaza....So maybe all those high-tech industries in Tel-Aviv have no right to survive....If we have no right to Jerusalem, Hebron, Bet-El, or Gaza, then we certainly have no right to Tel-Aviv, Hertzeliya, and Haifa....

there is no "same logic" that can be applied to Israel proper and to the occupied territories.

Tel Aviv was founded in 1909. Its foundation did not come after military conquest. The land on which the city stands is not occupied territory. Even the Arabs do not claim that. Same goes for Hertzlia, Haifa and all of Israel in pre 67 borders. The state of Israel was founded following UN resolution 181 and it draws its int'l legitimacy from that resolution. It is also a direct result of that resolution, meaning if the vote had failed in the UN then perhaps we would still be living under British mandate today.

Now, ALL the settlements in the occupied territories came to be only as a result of military conquest and occupation. There is no UN resolution or int'l legitimacy for these settlements. Moreover, Israel itself does not claim soveriginity over most of occupied territories, incl' Gaza strip.
You can of course say you don't need int'l support to feel that these regions are part of Israel, fine, but it still makes a difference between occupied territories and Israel proper. The "same" logic cannot be applied.

In the eyes of the Arabs, all of Israel is occupied territory and returning to the '67 borders will not pacify their hunger for all of "Palestine"....

That may or may not be the case, but just because the Arabs put the occupied territories and Israel proper in the same basket - that does not make them in the same basket.

I don't know where you get your statistics about most religious Jews in Israel not speaking hebrew....Maybe a small percentage of the Ultra-Orthodox in Bnei Brak and Mea Shearim, who don't recognize the State of Israel anyway, refuse to speak hebrew and only speak Yiddish, but most Orthdox (even ultra-Orthodox) in Israel today speak hebrew....Even the minority of UO who conduct their classes in school in Yiddish speak hebrew because they know that in order to survive in Israel, they need to speak the national language....Only pockets of radically anti-zionists like Neteuri Karta and some Satmar refuse to speak hebrew....

Fine, orthodox Jews speak Hebrew. very nicwe of them.
the historical facts remains: The language was revived from 2,000 years hiatus by secular Zionists. the secular Jews brought the language to its status today as one of the most prominent symbols of the Jewish people. That needs to be acknowledged.

For the record, I do not advocate all Jews in Israel becoming Orthodox or for Israel to become a halachic state, but on the other hand, if Israel was to become just another secular state of all its citizens, then there will not be much motivation for young Israelis (especially, secular Israelis) to stay and fight for Israel, especially if they are fed propaganda like "Israel was born in sin...." or "Israel is a colonial occupier", etc. We need to a) believe we belong here (and the only reason we belong here is because this IS our homeland because it says so in the Torah) and b) have a Jewish state to fight for, not just another western democracy to fight for....

For the record, I do not advocate that Israel should become "just another secular state of all its citizens". When I say that state should be separated from religion I mean that there should be as few religious laws as possible. Religious laws violate some basic human rights in Israel and prohibit Israelis from living accoring to their personal beliefs and ideologies.

and If you think I am using too extreme words, then tell me why does the state tells my friend he cannot mary his non-Jewish girlfriend. the state has absolutely no business telling people who to marry.

I think that maintaining Jewish charecteristic of Israel is all about education. The corriculum at school should reflect and express the desire of Israelis to maintain Jewish character, to observe Jewish holidays and customs.

For example, why not put into schools the learning towards aliyah latora at the age of 13? You want Jews to marry Jews? fine. EXPLAIN to them why is it important. teach them the dangers of assimilation. This is infinatly better then writing an arbiterary law.