Home | Jun. 18, 2002
In Beirut, suicide bombing is defended as "self-defense"
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
BEIRUT Mideast politicians defended Palestinian suicide bombings as an important "means of struggle" during a conference in Lebanon Tuesday that drew some of Israel's staunchest foes.
The conference opened in the Lebanese capital shortly after a Palestinian bomber blew himself up on a bus in Jerusalem, killing 19 Israelis and wounding 55.
http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/Conte...=1023716512361
This is yet another example of Arab culture, and why any attacks from Lebanon into Israel need to be met with devastating force against Lebanese military and civilian infrastructure.Originally posted by cerulean
BEIRUT Mideast politicians defended Palestinian suicide bombings as an important "means of struggle" during a conference in Lebanon Tuesday that drew some of Israel's staunchest foes.
It also shows how Israel pushed a Palestinian to do this. Of course homicide bombings are heinous and cruel. But what you fail to mention is that Israel kills 3 times as many Palestinians. And yet I see no sympathy for the deaths of them. Why is that?
You made me bash your head in, now apologize or I'll kill your dog. A sentiment a Bokassa or Mobuto or Pol Pot could champion!!!
There’s a clear distinction between intentionally killing someone vs. accidentally causing the death of an individual. This fact is entrenched in criminal law throughout most of the world.Originally posted by STT
It also shows how Israel pushed a Palestinian to do this. Of course homicide bombings are heinous and cruel. But what you fail to mention is that Israel kills 3 times as many Palestinians. And yet I see no sympathy for the deaths of them. Why is that?
Perhaps you see it as Israel going gung ho and killing as many civilians as possible. You post also indicate that Israel is pushing Palestinians to commit these horrendous acts. That shows to me that you feel that Israel has G-d like powers and it can do with the Palestinians as it pleases.
You are wrong!
You are wrong because if that were the case hundred of thousands of Palestinians would be dead by now. On the contrary Israel targets only the ones responsible for the despicable acts of murder and that is why the death toll is so low among the Palestinians.
That would be because I have no sypamthy for Palestinian terrorists killed by their intended Israeli victims.Originally posted by STT
It also shows how Israel pushed a Palestinian to do this. Of course homicide bombings are heinous and cruel. But what you fail to mention is that Israel kills 3 times as many Palestinians. And yet I see no sympathy for the deaths of them. Why is that?
As for saying that Israel is responsible for Palestinian terrorism, it is like blaming robberies on people carrying money instead of blaming the robbers for their crimes.
It's about time that the Palestinians and their apologists take responsibility for their murderous actions instead of blaming their victims.
STT,
How do you feel about running in the Central Park in the middle of the night, if you absolutely HAD TO get a Latte? If you were attacked, would you just raise your hands and say "OK, shoot me?" Would you have "pushed" your attacker into attacking you?
Re. numbers, "Israel kills 3 times as many Palestinians", etc. there are two issues to be considered:
- Just how reliable are the Palestinian casualty statistics? Is just about anyone who meets with a violent death on the Palestinian territories considered a victim of the Israelis?
- What proportion of the dead are really civilians and what are the exact circumstances of their deaths? For example, why do the militants provoke firefights in populated districts, well aware of the consequences for these very civilians, let alone situations like the one in Jenin in April?
This discussion came up in another thread and died down quickly. Maybe we should resume it.
You have likely seen this, but for the benefit of all I will just link to this post discussing the statistics:Originally posted by Vic
- Just how reliable are the Palestinian casualty statistics? Is just about anyone who meets with a violent death on the Palestinian territories considered a victim of the Israelis? [/B]
http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...2660#post12660
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The following describes what actually happens when a suicide bomb is detonated. It's quite ugly, needless to say:
From
http://asp.washtimes.com/printarticl...20621-96526568
...Rosie DiManno, a columnist for the Toronto Star who until recently sympathized with the Palestinian cause, talked to several physicists to get an idea of what exactly a suicide bomb does when a Hero of the Intifada pulls the trigger, vaporizing himself with no pain, and spreads hideous agony throughout a school bus, a cafe or a street.
"The force of the blast is determined by the quantity of the explosive," she writes. "An average bomb — the kind strapped around a suicide terrorist's waist, covered by a shirt — would likely detonate at a rate of about 28,000 feet per second — or about 22 times faster than a 9 mm bullet leaving the muzzle of a handgun. That means the surrounding air pressure — normally 15 pounds per square inch — would spike to 2,200 pounds per square inch. Such heat and pressure will melt iron. A person sitting nearby would feel, momentarily, a shock wave slamming into his or her body with an 'overpressure' of 300,000 pounds. Such a blast would crush the chest, rupture liver, spleen, heart and lungs, melt eyes, pull organs away from surrounding tissue, separate hands from arms and feet from legs. Bodies would fly through the air or be impaled on the jagged edges of crumpled metal and broken glass."
The dispatches describing the work of the suicide bombers invariably fall far short of describing the actual result. The children killed are often far more fortunate than those described as "wounded." The wounded are left to suffer in hideous agony, their bodies and organs riddled with the nails and screws and other sharp pieces of steel wrapped around the Semtex explosive. The bedclothes of such a victim must be changed frequently as pieces of shrapnel with blood and flesh attached work their way out of riddled bodies.
...
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"There’s a clear distinction between intentionally killing someone vs. accidentally causing the death of an individual. This fact is entrenched in criminal law throughout most of the world."
maybe so, but if you intentionally flew over an area where people were, and intentionally dropped a bomb, I don't like your chances of being believed when you say it was an accident some of them died.
These people have been killed by bombs/guns etc.
The bombs were deliberately dropped, the triggers were deliberately pulled.
So whilst you may believe the individuals weren't targetted, I hardly think the term' accidental' is appropriate.
I discuss wit a Gazan refugee who lives near me, who lost children to the IDF - do you think it makes any difference that the IDF dropped a bomb near her kids, but didn't mean for it to blow them up?
I accept the distinction of intent, but I think the lines are blurred when heavy military is deliberately being used.
Vic: one problem is who decides the context of the deaths?
The Israeli version is almost always that they were armed, the Palestinian version is nearly always that they weren't.
It would be naive to assume that either were always telling the truth. I don't know how possible it is to establish the context of these deaths.
sttOriginally posted by STT
It also shows how Israel pushed a Palestinian to do this. Of course homicide bombings are heinous and cruel. But what you fail to mention is that Israel kills 3 times as many Palestinians. And yet I see no sympathy for the deaths of them. Why is that?
you probably get this info on cnn, witch isnt exacly a neutral magazine. the palestiniens would kill there own people just to say israel killed them, and about the pushing to suicide, the palestiniens are not the only pissed off people in this world,
you dont see alot of example to this murderers, they dont want there land back, they want all of israel. the palestinian fake dead corpses, (didnt you see that tape)!
The term "accidental", or "unintentional" is appropriate indeed. It goes to the extent of the precautions taken to avoid injury to innocent bystanders.Originally posted by peacelover
These people have been killed by bombs/guns etc.
The bombs were deliberately dropped, the triggers were deliberately pulled.
So whilst you may believe the individuals weren't targetted, I hardly think the term' accidental' is appropriate.
In the case of Israel, the IDF takes extraordinary measures and provides extensive training to its troops to avoid Palestinian civilian casualties. So why do Palestinian "civilians" still die? Because the Palestinian terrorists make calculated decisions to operate bomb factories among civilian residences and intentionally shoot at IDF troops from occupied residential buildings in a deliberate attempt to maximize Palestinian caualties. The Arab and Islamic terrorist groups have always made sure to bring harm their own people and try to pin the blame on Israel to score PR points at the expense of their own people's lives.
If you have evidence that the IDF is intentionally targeting civilians you should forward it to the Israeli Government or you could even post it here.Originally posted by peacelover
These people have been killed by bombs/guns etc.
The bombs were deliberately dropped, the triggers were deliberately pulled.
So whilst you may believe the individuals weren't targetted, I hardly think the term' accidental' is appropriate.
Not just this. It seems that there is a nerly automatical assumption that whenever a Palestinian dies of gunshot wounds it through the Israelis. In the simplest case, any gunfight in a town produces a lot of ricocheting bullets, which means that it is difficult to tell who was it that actually fired this or other shot, unless you can distinguish the munition types. Also one hardly hears anything about proper autopsies (the most famous case of this kind was the boy Mohammed al-Dura who died at the Netzarim junction).Originally posted by peacelover
Vic: one problem is who decides the context of the deaths?
The Israeli version is almost always that they were armed, the Palestinian version is nearly always that they weren't.
Vic
you are right that there have been times when Palestinian gunfire has caused death, but this has resulted from gunbattle. If the soldiers opened fire, they must take the responsibility, if the Pals did, they must take it. But we can never know who started the gun battles anyway.
Lamplighter:
The point of my post was that if we accept Israel does not target civilians, the deaths can still not be classed as accidental. Perhaps unintentional - but there is a difference.
Who were the IDF targetting today when their guns injured 20 people in a market, and killed 3 people, inc children?
I accept that they maybe don't target them in the same way that Pals do, but I must stress that to drop a bomb with people nearby negates the validity of the even being called an accident.
This applies whether or not they wanted to kill people.
As for evidence, is there anything that Zionists will accept as evidence aginst Israel unless it comes direct from the IDF?
On other boards, I have shoen reports from the UN, and many internationally respected human rights orgs, testimonies of soldiers, there are thousands of eyewitness statements.
But it appears that all of this is Arab propaganda.
So what's the point in me posting it, if I'm going to be told that Amnesty is an anti-Israel liar? (normally said with a distinct lack of evidence for this accusation)
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