Why they hate us....

[MGB8]

Why the Arabs hate Israel is a complex question, but one that needs to be explored. I have come to certain conclusions, and the primary one is that the Arabs hate Israel for one reason more than any other: pride.

You see, Israel is a sore in the Arab's side. It is the West in the mideast. By the 20th century, the once glorious Arab nations were under the thumb of European imperialism. Britain and France ruled them, dominated them, and shamed them with their military and economic superiority.

Unlike India, the Arab nations did not "win" their independence (by passive resistance and nonviolence, might I add). They remain shamed. But unlike Africa, they were not powerless, they had the lifeblood of modern industry - oil. Lawrence of Arabia was European.

Israel, however, is a constant reminder of the West's dominance over the Arab states. Israel is a tiny country, a country of JEWS, noless (not exactly known for their fighting prowess), that consistently defeated much larger Arab forces - of multiple nations, not 1-on-1. Israel has a modern economy, unlike the rest of the mideast. It developed the Nuclear bomb. It survived without their oil. It survived with a democracy, as opposed to a paternalistic dictatorship. Israel is a leader in science and technology. It made the desert bloom. It survived all the ways (economic, political pressure through Europe, terrorism) that the Arab nations tried to destroy it with.

And that is a reminder to the Arab people of what they HAVE NOT done. It is a constant reminder of their failures.

And that is why there can be no real peace until the Arab nations are themselves reformed into modern democracies. Because until they have pride in themselves, the only source of their pride will be the hope that Israel will eventually be destroyed.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by MGB8
Why the Arabs hate Israel is a complex question, but one that needs to be explored. I have come to certain conclusions, and the primary one is that the Arabs hate Israel for one reason more than any other: pride.

True -- the Arabs, as a society, have failed in most endeavors in which modern societies have succeeded.

Arab and Islamic societies are mired in poverty, lack of education, lack of municipal services, lack of modern healthcare, overpopulation and Islamic extremism. Instead of focusing on the elements that make for success, Islamic societies are built on hatred, racism and ignorance.

These problems are caused by the brutal and corrupt Arab dictatorships and by the extremist Islamic incitement which glorifies violence.

Still, it is up to the Arabs to solve their own problems, although it is the responsibility of the rest of the world to lock out Arab violence and keep it confined to Arab societies.

[STT]

How ironic!

You are complaining about Arabs hating Israel and feel that this is so very wrong. But it is okay for you to hate Arabs b/c they are built on fictious accusations such as the list NewsGuy made.

Islamic societies are built on hatred, racism, and ignorance? All qualities you contain.

[Mediocrates]

Islamic societies are built on hatred, racism, and ignorance?

ok, not actually built on them but happy enough to exploit them in their own people in order to maintain their own iron grip of power then. Remember, tyranny isn't paranoia, it's the fear of paranoia.

[elke]

Originally posted by STT
How ironic!

You are complaining about Arabs hating Israel and feel that this is so very wrong. But it is okay for you to hate Arabs b/c they are built on fictious accusations such as the list NewsGuy made.

Islamic societies are built on hatred, racism, and ignorance? All qualities you contain.

So, are you saying that it's OK for Arabs to hate Israel?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by STT
... fictious accusations such as the list NewsGuy made.

Islamic societies are built on hatred, racism, and ignorance? All qualities you contain.

I don't think so. Rather, I think that you are living in denial about what goes on in the racist Arab and Islamic media, in the racist and hate-filled mosques, and in Arab and Islamic society in general.

Just a tiny little example of Arab society being indocrinated with hatred, racism and ignorance:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...1708#post11708

[droberts1958]

Why the hate.

A good question worth investigating because if you understand why then maybe something can be done about it.

I find it remarkable that when posing a question from the Arab perspective you fail to raise the most obvious answer.

The land or more specifically the lack of it.

Before the 1880s the Jewish population was a small minority in the region and although the non-jewish population who lived there (for thousands of years under what ever name you may want to call them) , was not large and may not have been unified the one thing that by and large most shared was a desire to resist the immigration of Jewish people. Believe it or not they saw it as a threat to their own pursuit of independance and control over these lands.

70 or so years later in 1948 they were not entirely happy with a decision by some decaying colonial power together with new world representative organisation taken to give much of what they considered their land to people they considered interlopers. They hated it so much they tried to drive the Jewish population into the sea so they could have what they considered their land back.

As if this was not bad enough for them they then lost even the half of the split which was suppossed to be permanently given to them in 1967 when they consider they were invaded. (They forget about the provocation.)

Most no longer seriously believe they can drive the Israelis into the sea so most would be content enough with simply going back to the 1967 borders. However the constant increase of Jewish settlers in what is in their minds absolutely their land is a constant thorn in their side.

Maybe pride, maybe envy has a small part of it but mostly it is the land. They feel cheated. Frankly most of the world except some in Israel and the US and very minor exceptions beyond this feel some sympathy with the Palestinian position. The world is not being racist or anti-semetic, certainly not as racist as Newsguy seems to be, they are simply being fair.

[Mediocrates]

Ummm, No. All arabs everywhere hate all Jews because of the partition of Palestine in 1948? Sorry, but your aluminum hat is showing.

[Mediocrates]

However the constant increase of Jewish settlers in what is in their minds absolutely their land is a constant thorn in their side.


Because after all ya can't have no Jews livin on yer land, what? Can't have none of them Jews no siree bob! They might pull your card down at the jihad club. Gotta hate them Jews in the name of the peaceful peaceloving people of Peace of Palistan.

I don't suppose ya never met no civil war ya didn't like?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by droberts1958
The land or more specifically the lack of it...
Maybe pride, maybe envy has a small part of it but mostly it is the land. They feel cheated. Frankly most of the world except some in Israel and the US and very minor exceptions beyond this feel some sympathy with the Palestinian position. The world is not being racist or anti-semetic, certainly not as racist as Newsguy seems to be, they are simply being fair.

You might want to label me a racist, but it's just not so.

On the other hand, I won't hesitate to point out cultural facts of Arabs and Islamists that contribute to their massacre of Israelis and Americans. As you said correctly, one needs to understand the causes of the problem to find a solution.

You say land is the cause of Arab hatred of Israel. You are right about that to a great extent. It is a land dispute based on religious hatred and the Arab desire to ethnically cleanse the Middle East of its Jewish presence.

But other land disputes have been solved through compromise. In 1948, the UN handed land to the Arabs. That was not enough for them. For decades Israel offered land for peace, but the Arabs rejected that concept. Even when Menachem Begin ordered Ariel Sharon to forecefully evacuate the settlement of Yamit in order to hand over the entire Sinai to Egypt, the Arab hatred of Israel did not cease for even one moment. In 1993, land was given to Arafat, but was still not enough to satisfy the Arabs. In 2000, land was offered to the Arabs, but still they were not satisfied.

So, at a certain point, one would realize that land, per se, is not the basis of the Arab hatred. Rather, it is a desire to exterminate all Jewish life from the Mideast that is the goal of the Arabs, and that is very much tied into somethig other than land. This kind of Arab and Islamic hatred is rooted in a Medieval culture of massacres of the infidels with violence and racism as its religious cornerstone.

On a positive note, though, perhaps the next generation or two of Arabs will start entering modern times and adopt some civilized values that will allow them to live peacefully with their neighbors.

[Mediocrates]

It's not about land it's about creating a ethnically pure Jew Free Palistan in constrast to the democratic, multicultural albeit imperfect society of Israel. If Israel gives away its Tel Aviv suburbs in the disputed lands in exchange for some vaporous 'peace' how many of those Jewish suburbanites will be offered citizenship and equal status under the law of Palistan.

Zero that's how many.

How many will be left to be Kristallnacht'd and pogrom'd by a jeering mob of peaceful peaceloving people of peace of Palistan?

All of them that's how many.

You want to talk about ethnic cleansing? Then I need to see every advocate of the peace movement and of Palistanian freedom to stand in front of every Jewish home in the disputed lands and fend off the mobs.

[MGB8]

"The land" is not a legitimate answer, Droberts.

Its tiny, wasn't all that much occupied even in 1948, and really has ZERO affect on most Arab lives. Its religious importance to Islam has been exagerated - it was not even considered holy until the crusades.

Do you really think the land is a reason for Egypt and Syria and Saudi Arabian Arabs to hate Israel?

In reallity they couldn't care less, just like they really don't care what happens to the Palestinian Arabs (thus allowing them to become refugees, repeatedly expelling them or massacring those who claim to be of that group.).

Droberts - the reason I don't mention the land is because the hate only has to do with the land on a very superficial level. In reality, it is not about the land, but what the Land under control of "western" Israel SIGNIFIES.

[droberts1958]

MG8

I don't agree the land is a superficial motive for hate at all. What goes with it is the loss of control over their own destiny, the road blocks, the checks etc etc.

Of course the land is the answer. If you suggesting that land is not important then surely it would hold that it is not important to the Israelis either. This certainly is not the case. They are bearing so much sacrifice to keep the land that it is absolutely critical to them. To this same extent the land and the control their of is important to the Arabs.

Mediocrates.

This thread started out on the basis of trying to identify why the hate exists. Your response seems to have no relevance to this. If you want to rant and rave please do it elsewhere.

Newsguy

I think I agree that the Arabs as a generalisation would have liked to have ethnically cleansed the Middle East. They certainly felt threatened and this would have eliminated the threat. In the current climate I think you would be right that as a generalisation they would like to ethnically cleanse the region of jews. I also believe that if Israel were to give the WB and G back the majority would accept the Jewish presence. Times and people can change. Hatred does not need to be self perpetuating.

Mediocrates

You truly are being an idiot. This thread is talking about why the hate exists from an Arab perspective. Are you suggesting that the Arabs who clearly passionately believe they own all the WB and G would be happy about Jewish settlers forcing their way with Israeli government assistance on to what they consider is their land. Try to read the thread before allowing your anti-Arab bile to escape.

[Vic]

One of the factors is that anti-semitism "sells" well in parts of the Western world, playing the role of a social entrance ticket to the societies many Arabs/Muslims regard to with a kind of inferiority complex.

Cf. an article by Fareed Zakaria, written shortly after 9/11 on anti-americanism/anti-Western sentiment: http://www.msnbc.com/news/639057.asp?cp1=1 . The practical implication is that, to mimic a much too common usage on this forum, anti-semitic Germans, Frenchmen etc. are as much "Arab" (or Iranian, Pakistani etc. for that matter) as the other way round.

[MGB8]

But that's been proven not to be the case, droberts. Over the last 9 years the Palestinian Arabs HAD control over their destinies in every meaningful way.

I laugh when people mention an interim state now, what do you think Oslo set up? Sure, no uncontrolled borders (than g-d), but pretty much every thing else. And tons of money to boot. But the hate intensified, not lessened.

And the land and self determination still says nothing to the other Arab nations and peoples, who really have nothing to do with Israel.

As for the Israeli's, its about the land, yes, but on very different levels. Its about two things, really, more than the land: (1) history/religion, and (2) the holocaust/survival. Maybe a third, two, and that is keeping what has been accomplished alive.

While there is certainly a religious element to the hatred, the Quran even mentions Jerusalem as belonging to the "people of the book" ie. the Jews.

No, Droberts, this is about EUROPEAN IMPERIALISM and Arab Pride. Make no mistake, this is about much much more than a strip of land.