@ Negotiator (the mullah)

[sukhoiman]

In reply to your earlier post, since that thread is now closed:

Indian logic dictates that when losing an intellectual argument bring in the 1971 war, We were talking about Indus valley civilization not Bangladesh, Getting back to subject, Im sorry but the small area of what of Pakistan was part of the Indian tectonic plate and was forced into being part of India is only one small corner of India ie north-western, What about the rest of Indian sub-continent?

Fact is Indians were forrest-dwelling people, simple and animalistic, Pakistanis at the same time of history were a sophisiticated people with the Indus valley civilization. Can a Libyan claim Anceint Egypt as his history? No. How then can Indians claim Pakistans ancient history? Nevermind the fact that the Indus valley civilization was completely in Pakistan, and that the people of modern day Pakistan have for the most part lived on that land for thousands of years, but its not the history of the Pakistani people its "ALL INDIAN!"

God, its useless arguing with a cockroach. Where did you hear that the Indus valley people were Pakistani? You are a god - freaking idiotic brainless moron....got that?

Lets have a look at the world factbook:

INDIA:

The Indus Valley civilization, one of the oldest in the world, dates back at least 5,000 years. Aryan tribes from the northwest invaded about 1500 B.C.; their merger with the earlier Dravidian inhabitants created the classical Indian culture. Arab incursions starting in the 8th century and Turkish in the 12th were followed by those of European traders, beginning in the late 15th century. By the 19th century, Britain had assumed political control of virtually all Indian lands. Indian armed forces in the British army played a vital role in both World Wars. Nonviolent resistance to British colonialism led by Mohandas GANDHI and Jawaharlal NEHRU brought independence in 1947. The subcontinent was divided into the secular state of India and the smaller Muslim state of Pakistan. A third war between the two countries in 1971 resulted in East Pakistan becoming the separate nation of Bangladesh. Despite impressive gains in economic investment and output, India faces pressing problems such as the ongoing dispute with Pakistan over Kashmir, massive overpopulation, environmental degradation, extensive poverty, and ethnic and religious strife.


Pakistan:

The separation in 1947 of British India into the Muslim state of Pakistan (with two sections West and East) and largely Hindu India was never satisfactorily resolved, and India and Pakistan have fought two wars - in 1947-48 and 1965 - over the disputed Kashmir territory. A third war between these countries in 1971 - in which India capitalized on Islamabad's marginalization of Bengalis in Pakistani politics - resulted in East Pakistan becoming the separate nation of Bangladesh. In response to Indian nuclear weapons testing, Pakistan conducted its own tests in 1998. The dispute over the state of Kashmir is ongoing, but recent discussions and confidence-building measures may be a start toward lessened tensions.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/in.html
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/pk.html

So who's the stupid dumb-fock now mr cockroach mullah?

[sukhoiman]

Yes Pakistan has only existed AS A STATE for almost 60 years but the Land of what is now Pakistan and the people that live in what is now Pakistan are descendants of the ancient people that lived there and people that came and invaded/integrated; The majority of people of Pakistan have lived on the land of Pakistan for thousands of years, Therefore they are the the decendants of a most cultured people; Indians on the other hand were living in the jungles, Besides you said so yourself The majority of people of Pakistan have lived on the land of Pakistan for thousands of years, Also Like I have said constantly Harappans, Rig Vedic Aryans, Persians, Greeks, Scythians, Parthians, Kushans, Hephthalites, Arabs, Turks, and Moguls have all played thier part in the history of what is now Pakistan. Indus valley does not even lie In India! Its in Pakistan, How dare you Indians claim Indus valley as your civilization!


India was only properly unified during the 1000 year Muslim rule, Before this point of time India was not a unified country but rather a large area of land made up of princely states, The integrated India that included Pakistan was adopted by the British when they took charge; Can you prove to me that Pakistan was part of India outwith 100 years of the Marrayans, 522 years of Muslims and 100 years of the British? Thats only for 700 years of Pakistans entire 3500 BC history.

The lands of Pakistan and people and culture of today's Pakistan are two completely different things you stupid doofus. Indus Valley lies in the Indian subcontinent. The Indian subcontinent is India and the adjacent modern day countries that have historically been part of the region known as India.

Face it, if Islam had never come to Pakistan and/or if it wasn't such a dividing factor...then Pakistan would still be part of India....simply because of the fact that throughout history, the Indus has always been part of India. The Persians gave the name "Hindu" after the Indus river. When Alexander came to India, it was at the Indus where he defined that India started and encountered the INDIAN king Porus (Paurava). The Chinese travellers Fa Hsien and Huang Tsang came to INDIA, not Pakistan. The Romans spoke of India as did the Greeks. Vasco Da Gama and Christopher Columbus both seeked a passage to India by sea in different directions, one succeeded (by using and then killing arab pilots) and the other found another land altogether.

Heck, you seem to always revel in the so - called Chinese - India rivalry.

Why don't you have a read of these comments on India by notable Chinese and other individuals on China's links with INDIA in history:

http://www.atributetohinduism.com/India_and_China.htm

Pakistan is not mentioned even ONCE.

Pakistan is a new, recent phenomenon, even artificial in many ways. The idea uses religion to carve up an identity and then assert this identity as far back in history as possible in an attempt to add further justification to Pakistan's sovereignty. Its a futile attempt to say the least, and gives yet another sector for mainstream pakistanis to be ignorant in so that their govt preserves unity by preserving animosity towards India. You are a very fine specimen and tribute to that.

[sukhoiman]

Gupta empire:

http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefme...i/T051793A.gif

Mauryan Empire:

http://www.american-pictures.com/gen...ent/Ashoka.htm

[The Negotiator]

How many pakistanis cry over Bangladesh? A lot. Bring up the discussion with almost any Pakistani, face to face, in real life and you will see him whimper up into a little baby unable to face the reality of a nation whose very ideals were CRUSHED by that war.

But similarly Indians "wimper" at Partition of 1947; I have seen Indians close to tears that thier "Ma-Bharat" (Motherland) was cut in pieces; Infact I would have to say that an entire Indian generation is still psychologically scared by partiton;

Hah, homeland for India's muslims they said. Jinnah probably shifted in his grave as Pakistan commited genocide on fellow muslims and hindus that were supposed to have protection under Jinnah's very own vision.

Can you please prove the "genocide" by taking this matter to ther Hague or international courts of justice? Unless you can not there was no "genocide" Innocent until proven guilty as they say!

South Asia is not the poorest place in the world. Maybe Pakistan is. Last time I checked, India was well above Pakistan in the Human Development Index and has initiated many internationally recognized social programs for its people. We experience growth, are in the midst of expanding it to cover all sections of the population and are actively pursuing research and geopolitical maneuvering on the international stage. Pakistan can feed off its master China for as long as it wants, but dont blame us when we accidentally squash you like the bug that you are. Its either be friends and change, or stay hostile and get destroyed.

Really? Indians is much better off than your average Pakistani!

Source

Children Underweight Rate

#1 India 18%
#2 Eritrea 17%
#3 Ethiopia 16%
#4 Yemen 15%
#5 Niger 14%
#6 Pakistan 13%
#7 Burundi 13%
#8 Cambodia 13%
#9 Bangladesh 13%
#10 Laos 13%


1962 was a case of miscommunication and mispreparation.

No it was a case of you got your a$$ kicked.

Our fate is in no way linked to Pakistan's fate. Since you like to distance yourselves from us, why do ALL Pakistanis love to say this...that if Pakistan fails, it will pull India down with it? Nope, no can do. In a Nuclear way, a lot of Indian cities might be destroyed, but Pakistan would cease to exist.
By nuking India, a Pakistani leader is basically commiting genocide of his own people. Of course this would be the only way to save face. No Pakistani could bear to see Indian tanks rolling down the streets of islamabad, lahore and karachi.....better die and take as many indians down with you. Typical mullah mentality.

Nice fulfillment of Jinnah's vision I must say.

Yes! If India even thinks about invading its automatically a nuclear war! Sorry but you can talk of India surviving all you want, But India will be completely in the dark ages and the chances are that what little will remain of India will destroy itself by civil war (No shortage of insurgenices in India without Nuclear war) You can forget Superpower!

How true were Baburs words “Hindustan is a country that has few pleasures to recommend it. The people are not handsome; they have no idea of the charms of friendly society, of frankly mixing together or of familiar intercourse. They have no genius, no comprehension of mind, no politeness of manner, no kindness or fellow-feeling, no ingenuity, no mechanical invention in planning or executing their handicraft, no skill no knowledge in design or architecture. They have no horses, no good flesh, no grapes, or muskmelons, no good fruits, no ice, no cold water, no good food or bread in their bazaars, no baths, no candles, no torches not a candlestick.”

[The Negotiator]

The lands of Pakistan and people and culture of today's Pakistan are two completely different things you stupid doofus. Indus Valley lies in the Indian subcontinent. The Indian subcontinent is India and the adjacent modern day countries that have historically been part of the region known as India.

The people of Pakistan have lived on the land that is now Pakistan for thousands of years, Where do you think Pakistanis came from? Sure some invaded the land but they stayed on; Just like Muslims stayed on in India after
Muslim rule had ended and the British took over. The British left because they had a home to go back to; Muslims of India had no such place and that is why they demanded Pakistan. Some Indian muslims did go to Pakistan most stayed in India.

Face it, if Islam had never come to Pakistan and/or if it wasn't such a dividing factor...then Pakistan would still be part of India....simply because of the fact that throughout history, the Indus has always been part of India. The Persians gave the name "Hindu" after the Indus river. When Alexander came to India, it was at the Indus where he defined that India started and encountered the INDIAN king Porus (Paurava). The Chinese travellers Fa Hsien and Huang Tsang came to INDIA, not Pakistan. The Romans spoke of India as did the Greeks. Vasco Da Gama and Christopher Columbus both seeked a passage to India by sea in different directions, one succeeded (by using and then killing arab pilots) and the other found another land altogether.

No sorry; Pakistan would not be a part of India as the people in those regions themselves voted for an Independant Pakistan; the fact they chose a new nation called Pakistan over an established India shows the deep disdain they had for India; If for one moment we say that the people were not Muslim they would still be unhappy with India and strive for autonomy; There is already no shortage of insurgencies in India Nagaland; Kashmir; Punjab needless to say these regions of what is now Pakistan would have been in the same position, So regardless of religion the people in the area that is now Pakistan have always detested Indians and would have got thier freedom some way or another.

Pakistan is a new, recent phenomenon, even artificial in many ways. The idea uses religion to carve up an identity and then assert this identity as far back in history as possible in an attempt to add further justification to Pakistan's sovereignty. Its a futile attempt to say the least, and gives yet another sector for mainstream pakistanis to be ignorant in so that their govt preserves unity by preserving animosity towards India. You are a very fine specimen and tribute to that.

By calling Pakistan "artificial" you are showing your deep hatred of Pakistan, The people of Pakistan; our religion and our way of life; This in my view itself justifies the creation of Pakistan; We have a right to live in peace away from threats, Pakistan was given to us by God so that we can live here in peace and that is exactly what we will do; We have no interest in India/ns and thier friends but will not tolerate any acts of aggression.The land of Pakistan belongs to the people of Pakistan that live on the land; It does not belong to anyone else, Understand that? Indians can only claim land within the borders of what is now India; Using your logic India can claim the lands of all Pakistan and south asia because at some point of history it was forced into being part of India, Similarly using your logic the British have right to claim large parts of the world since they were conquered by the British Empire hundreds of years ago

Lastly where exactly are Pakistanis supposed to go? We are not going to vacate Pakistan because some small areas of Pakistan were incorporated into india for only 700 years (100 Years Marrayan, 522 Years Muslim, 100 years under the British) out of its 5500 Year history, Sorry but thats just not going to happen, We live on this land and its ours and were not going anywhere and Pakistan is here to stay. Its time people like you stoped questioning the existence of Pakistan.

the Indus has always been part of India

Have you seen a map lately? Indus is in completely in Pakistan.

Map Of Pakistan Showing Indus River

[The Negotiator]

"India was well above Pakistan in the Human Development Index"

Perhaps if you werent so incapacitated you would know that the HDI was invented by a Pakistani economist named Dr Mahbub ul Haq. I find it funny you are trying to berate Pakistan by using a Pakistani invention!

"The UN Human Development Index (HDI) is a comparative measure of poverty, literacy, education, life expectancy, and other factors for countries worldwide. It is a standard means of measuring well-being, especially child welfare. The index was developed in 1990 by the Pakistani economist Mahbub ul Haq, and has been used since 1993 by the United Nations Development Programme in its annual report."

HDI Was Invented By Pakistani

[karan]

Certain Maps:

http://www.india-history.com/ancient...ent-india.html

http://www.india-history.com/ancient...ka-empire.html

http://www.india-history.com/ancient...a-in150AD.html

http://www.india-history.com/ancient...ta-empire.html

http://www.india-history.com/ancient...a-in640AD.html

Here the arabs are there. The problem starts here.
http://www.india-history.com/ancient...a-in9thAD.html

[The Negotiator]

Facts about the pre-Muslim ancestors of Pakistanis:


1. Before the advent of Islam, the majority of people in the region of Pakistan practised Buddhism, Zoroastrianism (and its derivatives like Mithraism, Saurism, Manichaeism, etc.), Animism (nature worship), Paganism (Hellenic and other deities), and Shamanism. Harappans ate beef, buried their dead, had no Hindu temples/idols/deities, etc. RigVedic Aryans forbade idolatry, ate beef, sacrificed cows, had no caste system, were culturally closer to ancient Iranians, etc. Under Persian rule, Zoroastrianism started to spread.

Similarly,Greek Paganism (Hellenism) spread under the Greeks. Ashoka brought Buddhism,which was later also propagated along with Zoroastrianism, Animism, Shamanism,Hellenism, etc.under the Bactrians, Sakas/Scythians, Parthians, and Kushans for many centuries. Hephthalites/White Huns were not very fond of Buddhism, but it still remained popular among the masses. Brahmanists and Shaivites were a minority in Pakistan. Kafirs of Kalasha, the only people in Pakistan who have retained their ancient religion are an example of the non-Hindu religions practised by the ancestors of Pakistanis. Gangetic holy Hindu texts call Pakistan region as outlandish, sinful, outcaste, mlechas, etc.The pre-Muslim ancestors of most Pakistanis never called themselves Hindu nor practised any religion similar to present-day Hinduism.Thus, the pre-Muslim ancestors of most Pakistanis had nothing to do with Hinduism.

2. The word/term "Hindu/Hinduism" is a recent construct. It were the Muslim invaders who for the first time in history imposed the foreign term "Hindu" in South Asia to the countless distinct local religions. The term "Hinduism" was given by the British colonialists. Not a single pre-Muslim/British era Brahman, Buddhist, Jain, or any other South Asian scripture/inscription mentions the word "Hindu/Hinduism". Similarly, "Sanata Dharma" was a term invented in the 19th century AD by Brahmanist scholars in their desperate attempt to replace the Muslim/British term "Hindu/Hinduism". Such terms are artificial in nature because of its origins and meanings. Just because we call all Europeans or their descendents as "Goras" it does not make them one people as they have many racial, religious, linguistic, cultural, and historical differences. By the same token, if the Ghorid Muslim invaders imposed the foreign word/term "Hindu" on the non-Muslim peoples of south Asia it does not mean that they were one people since there were/are countless different religions, cultures, histories, languages, and races in south Asia. Besides, by the time of Ghorid invasions (12th century AD), Pakistan region was already mostly Muslim. Most of Pakistan region was a part of Arab empires previously and Arabs called them as Sindhis.So the Ghorid imposition of the artificial term Hindu was mostly for present day north India for their ruled non-Muslim subjects. The bottomline is Pakistanis were not Hindus because they never called themselves Hindu nor practised Hinduism.

3. A significant minority of Pakistanis are descendents of Arab, Iranian, Turkic, Mughal and Afghan invaders/migrants, who just like the rest of the ancestors of Pakistanis were Zoroastrians, Animists, Pagans, Shamanists, and Buddhists before Islam. It was mostly due to Islamic Sufism that the ancestors of Pakistanis converted en masse to Islam.

4. Pre-1947 region of present-day Pakistan only had less than 15% non-Muslims, out of which half were Sikhs. Many of the Hindus were actual migrants from the region of present day India during the British rule. For example, most of the Hindus in pre-1947 Karachi had migrated from Gujarat and Rajasthan during British rule because of Karachi's economic boom then. The other remaining Hindus of local origin were converts due to Shankarcharya's missionaries from India region during post- 9th century AD period. The fact is there is barely any trace of Hindu past in Pakistan region yet there are plentiful of Buddhist and other non-Hindu archeological remains in Pakistan region. The few Hindu temples in Pakistan region cannot be dated past the 9th century AD. When Muslims invaded Pakistan region the majority of its people were Buddhists (as testified in Chachnama), so much so that the word for idol became "budh".

On the pre-1947 non-Muslim population in present day region of
Pakistan:

1. W. Punjab: 6% Hindu, 10% Sikh
2. Sindh: 9% Hindu, 2% Sikh
3. NWFP: 1% Hindu, 2% Sikh
4. Baluchistan: 2% Hindu

Other Sources:

According to the UN and other respected organizations, 12 million is the total estimate of migrations from both India and Pakistan (East Pakistan included) of Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs combined at the time of partition. So if Hindus and Sikhs are taken as 50% of that figure (although there were much more migrations of Hindus/Sikhs than Muslims) of population, that would make about 6 million Hindus-Sikhs in both East and West Pakistan that migrated to India. Now, we know that there was almost an equal (50% each) number of migrants leaving East and West Pakistan (although Hindu population in East Pakistan was much higher),that would make the Hindu-Sikh population in West Pakistan about 3 million.Now we know that West Pakistan's population at that time was about 25-30 million which makes the total Hindu-Sikh population about 10-12% (+ add the current 1.5%) in West Pakistan before partition. Also, it is estimated that out of the non-Muslim population in West Pakistan, +40% were Sikhs, so that leaves Hindus with even lesser numbers. We know that Sikhs do not consider themselves as Hindus and they are fighting for independence from India.

[The Negotiator]

Myth of One Hindu Nation Exploded by Hadwa Dom

4.1 Religious Conflicts, Holy Wars and Persecutions in Indian Religions
Perhaps the most convincing evidence that the Hindu religions do not comprise one monolithic faith is the savage wars and perecutions they unleashed against each other. By comparison, the Christian Crusades, Islamic Jihads and Jewish Wars were mild. The Brahmanic Dark Ages of India (1500 BC - 1000 AD) were exactly analogous to the Medieval Dark Ages of Europe (500 AD - 1400 AD), both being marked by inhuman persecution of `heretics' and large-scale religious wars.

Persecutions of Buddhists
Barbaric persecutions were meted out against the Buddhists, including wholesale massacres and destruction of Buddhist shrines. The Sunga King, supporter of the Aryan Vaishnavite faith of Orthodox Brahmanism, offered 100 gold coins for the head of a Buddhist monk !

" Pusyamitra Sunga is described as "cruel persecutor of Buddhism" in Buddhist traditions. Divyavadana records that "he destroyed monasteries and killed monks." He is said to have a announced a reward of a hundred gold coins for a head of a monk .
-- [ Divyavadana, p.429-434; also Indian Historical Quarterly Vol. XXII, p.81 ff cited in Hars.407 ]

Sasanka, the Smarta Brahminist King of Bengal, also persecuted the Buddhists. It is often wrongly asserted that he was a `Shaivite'; this is not true. On account of the paucity of Sudrics in the region of Bengal and his open allegiance to Vedic gods Sasanka was in fact a Smarta.

* Hsuan Tsang records that " by Sasanka's extermination of Buddhism the groups of Brethren were all broken up." [ Hars.422 citing Watter's transln. II.43 ].
* Sasanka "tried in vain to efface the foot-prints; caused the stone to be thrown into the Ganges, but it returned to its original place." [ Hars.422 citing Watters.II.92 ]
* "In recent times, Sasanka, the enemy and oppressor of Buddhism, cut down the Bodhi tree, destroyed its roots down to the water and burned what remained." [ Hars.422 citing Watters.II.115 ] and [ Hars.157.n.104 ]
* Sasanka's "abortive attempt to have the image ( of Buddha ) removed and repaced by one of Shiva." [ Hars.422 citing Watters.II.116 ]

The Chinese traveller visited India during the decline of Buddhism. He records the vast ruins that survived of monasteries that had been destroyed in the widespread religous conflicts. Describing the desolation caused by persecutions in Gandhara, he writes " There were above 1000 Buddhist monasteries in the country but they were utterly dilapidated [ in Gandhara ] and untenanted. Many of the topes were in ruin. There were above 100 Deva-temples and the various sects lived pell-mell." [ Hars.407 ]

All throughout he found desolation and devastation. " There has formerly been 1400 monasteries but many of these were in ruins and once there has ben 18000 brethern but these had gradually decreased until only a few remained, these were all Mahayanists .[ in Udyana ] [ Hars.408 ].

Fierce oppression of Buddhism occurred in Bengal under the Aryan Vaishnavite Senas. In conseqeunce of the Brahmanical persecutions, the oppressed Buddhists, Dharmists, etc. welcomed the Islamic invaders as liberators :

" [In ] the Middle Bengali [ manuscript ] `Niranjanera Rusma' , The Wrath of the Sinless One (ie. Dharma), in which it is stated that the Gods were angry with the Brahmans because they persecuted the Sadharnmis or Buddhists,a dn they came down to Earth in the forms of Mussulmans and destroyed Hindu temples - a thing which meets with the evident approval of the Buddhist writer . A form of debased Mahayan Buddhism seems to have been quite the popular faith in East Bengal."
-- [ Ori.I.208-209 ]

Internal Buddhist Persecutions

The various Buddhist sects also persecuted each other. Thus the " Hinayanists conspired to assassinate Yuan Chuang " , a Mahayanist, because he had defeated them in the Buddhist assembly called by King Harsa in Kannauj. But the plot leaked and he was saved [ Hars, p.431 ].

Jain Persecutions

Jains were also fiercely persecuted, and Jain temples were often destroyed. " One west Chalukyan inscription formally accuses the Chola king of having burnt Jain temples in the Belvola province." [ Arab, p.62 citing Niz, p.88 ]

Prof. Harbans Mukhia writes,

"Many Hindu rulers also did the same (demolish) with temples in enemy territory long before the Muslims had emerged as a political challenge to these kingdoms. Subhatavarman, the Parmar ruler (1193 -1210 A.D.), attacked Gujrat and plundered a large number of Jain temples at Dabhoi and Cambay. Harsha, a ruler of Kashmir, plundered all the temples in his own kingdom, barring four, in order to replenish his treasury, and not a word of protest was uttered. And when he needed still more money and enhanced the amount of tribute due from his subordinate feudal lords, he was dragged down the streets of Srinagar and done to death."
-- [ Name ]

Shaivite Persecutions of Aryan Vaishnavites

The Shaivites persecuted the Aryan Vaishnavites who had invaded and subjugated the Dravidians. Thus Ramanuja succeeded in converting Dravidian temples into Aryan Vaishnavite ones, and was gradually undermining Dravidian religion. In revenge, the Chola king persecuted him and his followers, and he thus had to flee to Karnataka. Thus, the Vaishnavas also level the charge of large-scale temple demolition against the Cholas. [ Niz.88 cited in Arab.62 ].

Saura Persecution of Vaishnavites

To protect their religion from the Apartheid Vaishnavite system, the Rajputs returned with persecutions of Vaishnavites. Mira Bai was a fanatic Krishnaite -

" [ She ] quarrelled with her mother-in-law, a worshipper of Devi, respecting compliance with the family adoration of that goddess, and was, in consequence of her persevering refusal to desert the worship of Krishna, expelled the Rana's bed and palaca." She survived after "drinking unhesitatingly a draught of poison presented to her by her husband ."
-- [ Wilson's Hindu Sects cited in Sect.376 ]

Brahmans were sent to bring her home during her pilgrimage to Dwarka and Brindavan but she lept into a fissure that opened in the deity and then left. [ Wilson's Hindu Sects cited in Sect.376 ] Thus, such was the hatred that a man would poison his own wife for religion ! Such cases are not witnessed even during the darkest days of the European Medieval period.

Internal Vaishnavite Persections

Swami Narayan was a Vaishnavite Guru and sect-founder of the sect named after him, the Swami Narayan sect of Vaishnavites. Swami Narayan left his home in Rohilkhand in 1800 [ Sect.373 ]. There " he was arrested by the officials of the Gaikwar [ of Gujarat ] and thrown into prison " due to Vallabhite Vaishnavite opposition.

Vaishnavite Persecution of Sauras

The Brahminist Vaishnavites engaged in savage persecution of Saura Rajputs (Sun-Worshippers from Central Asia, of Hellenic & Scythic stock). During the Empire of Mughalstan, also known as the Delhi Caliphate, Rajastan enjoyed unprecedented prosperity. Large-scale zinc production started in Rajastan in the 13th century AD and lasted till the mid 18th century AD [ Desh ]. Small-scale mines are found that date to the 4-5th centuries BC but these are very small; the rise in mineral production occurred under the Islamic Caliphate. This large-scale mining contributed to immense prosperity under Pax Islamica. When this empire collapsed, hordes of fanatic Vaishnavite Marathas poured over Rajastan, eventually exterminating half the population :

" In a very few years Mewar lost half her population ; her lands lay waste, her mines unworked; and her looms, which formerly supplied all around, forsaken. "
-- [ Met, p.355 ]

The first Maratha invasion of Rajastan occurred in 1736 AD [ Met, p.351 ]. Strife and spoilation ocurred till the treaty of 1817 AD. Annihilation and genocide were the main hallmarks of the barbaric Vaishnavite invasions. Eyewitness accounts describe the horrors inflicted by the Brahminist Marathas on the Saura Rajputs:

" Wherever the Maratha encamped, annihilation was ensured; it was a habit; and 24 hours sufficed to give to the most flourishing spot the aspect of a desert. The march of destruction was always to be traced for days afterwards by burning villages and destroyed cultivation "
-- [ Met.374 ]

Bappoo Sindhia arrived in 1867 AD with the title of Soobadar, and encamped in the valley. Baron Metcalfe, who was in Rajastan at the time and witnessed the unimaginable devastation, wrote that Bappoo

" ... rendered Mewar a desert, carrying her chiefs, her merchants, her farmers into captivity and fetters in the dungeons of Ajmeer, where many died for want of ransom, and others languished till the treaty with the British in 1817 AD which set them free."
-- [ Met.375 ]

Hundreds of Rajput Saura temples were smashed in this wholesale destruction of Rajastan. The wounds that survive from that era are yet to heal.

It is thus evident that the `Hindus' have been slaughtering each other in religious wars for the last several thousand years, rendering completely ludicrous any attempts to class them under `one nation'. The concept of `One Hindu Nation' is thus utter falsehood.

http://www.dalitstan.org/books/mohr/mohr4.html

[Mediocrates]

I think we've covered the warnings on this already. Isn't there some other board you'd prefer to do this on?

[sukhoiman]

But similarly Indians "wimper" at Partition of 1947; I have seen Indians close to tears that thier "Ma-Bharat" (Motherland) was cut in pieces; Infact I would have to say that an entire Indian generation is still psychologically scared by partiton;

Nah, when we see how Pakistan is failing and becoming a terrorist haven, we are thankful that your scum have a country of your own. This way we can focus on our economic growth without having to worry about engaging in terrorism and propogating doctrines to our people.

Can you please prove the "genocide" by taking this matter to ther Hague or international courts of justice? Unless you can not there was no "genocide" Innocent until proven guilty as they say!

That is for Bangladesh to do. However for sake of relations and forgiveness, they never have done so. It is also important to realise that even if they did, the US and China would have sunk any such resolution when it comes to the vote. Many rulings of the international courts aren't even accepted by countries, heck I doubt Pakistan would even agree to any form of arbittration by any neutral body....they just hope that the issue will slowly die away and will be forgotten. But many western and local authors still point to the figures, the quotes from the Pakistani govt at the time and the ground reality and experiences of the survivors:
http://freedomspeace.blogspot.com/20...docudrama.html
R.J. Rummel writes:

I have given a lot of statistics about democide in this blog. But, who can digest my mention of a 1,000,000 murdered here or there. It is near impossible to empathize with the human catastrophy such statistics dimly reflect when we have difficulty getting a feel for numbers greater than six or seven. A murderer tortures and kills three people, and that gets into our gut – three loving, feeling, human beings killed in agony. We can imagine this happening to our family or circle of close friends. But mention 10,000, 100,000, or 1,000,000, and that is beyond imagination and feeling; they are only a numbers.

So, to do something more than just provide statistics, I’m going to present a docudrama about one democide you probably know nothing about. It will demonstrate how much of democide is unknown—not hidden, but put away like all unwanted memories, and in the particular case I will relate, for political reasons. I’m going to tell you what Pakistan’s military rulers did in 1971—not the present government, but a previous one. Its genocide is still unmentionable, since Pakistan is an ally of the United States and a part of its coalition in the war against terrorism.

Pakistan is India’s neighbor to the west. And squeezed into the lower southeasern side of India is Bangladesh. Until 1971, that country was part of Pakistan, and was called East Pakistan. Its major ethnic group was Bengali, and their religion, as in West Pakistan, was Islam, although a slightly different variant.

Leading up to 1971, East Pakistan had been working politically and nonviolently toward independence from West Pakistan, almost a thousand miles away. It was on the verge of success after Pakistan’s 1969 national election, when the Bengali Awami League gained an absolute majority in the national legislature.

However, the ruling generals of Pakistan were absolutely opposed to East Pakistan gaining independence, so in 1971 General Agha Mohammed Yahya Khan, the self appointed president of Pakistan and commander-in chief of the army and his top generals, prepared a careful and systematic military operation against East Pakistan. They planned to murder that country’s Bengali intellectual, cultural, and political elite. To reiterate what is hard to believe, at the highest level of this regime, the rulers planned, prepared, and executed the cold-blooded murder of the best and brightest Bengalis in East Pakistan, and murdered indiscriminately many of its Hindus, driving the rest into India. This despicable and cutthroat plan was outright genocide.

Now, imagine that you were a student there. Before going to bed one night, you may have been in the library studying, working on your term paper, or doing a lab assignment. You may have written home or been out in Dacca with some friends. You may have given your friend a secret kiss before parting, already looking forward to seeing each other the next day. You go to bed that night with a future for which you are studying hard, with a future of loved ones and children, with a future of hope and bright dreams. You have not the slightest hint that the next day will be any different than the last; you close your eyes without any thought that you will be lucky to see the dawn, or if you do, that you will not live through the day.

So students the world over have gone to bed, to be destroyed there by earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, tsunamis, tornadoes, and fire. But these are nature’s doings. What would happen this night was done by fellow human beings. Intentionally.

In the middle of the night, with no warning, West Pakistani tanks began shelling the dormitories of the University of Dacca, where students like you were sleeping.

Visualize it: you are blasted awake by tank shells suddenly bursting through the dorm walls and windows to explode throughout the dorm amongst your beds, your study rooms. Red-hot shrapnel flies, randomly seeking out those who will die, lose a leg or arm, or have their belly slit open so wide, their guts tumble out. Then the trembling fear, wild panic, and screaming; the mute dead, the crying wounded, the smoke and fire, destruction and blood, everywhere. And the forever unknown courage and heroism as you and others help the wounded and try to escape the flames and explosions.

You try to run or crawl out of the dorm, and help others to escape. You’re shaking. Your heart is beating wildly. You can’t get your breath. But you finally climb over smoking debris and make it outside.

But outside, the West Pakistan troops are waiting, and you are rounded up at bayonet point to stand or sit in trembling shock. You don’t know what happened or what they will do to you. You can’t believe it. You think this must be a nightmare as you watch the dormitories burn down with your fellow students still screaming inside or jumping from windows. If you have only minor injuries or none at all, you may try to help the crying, moaning wounded on the ground around you.

Dawn slowly shows through the smoke, and soldiers begin pushing and prodding all of you through the haze toward a grassy area near a parking lot. The soldiers bayonet those who resist, or who are too wounded to move. You are stunned and trembling -- you cannot believe what you just saw. Students are being murdered, some you know, and as they are repeatedly bayoneted their screams and pleas for mercy rip through your mind.

Self-preservation takes over and you allow yourself to be herded along with the other survivors toward the grassy area, where you see a pile of shovels, hoes, and digging sticks that a small truck nearby has dumped. You are jabbed and shoved toward the pile and then the soldiers form a tight ring around all of you. An officer shouts, ‘Dig a trench. Dig it deep. Or be tortured to death.’

Your knees are almost knocking together, your heart thudding in your ears, and tears drip from your face as, in utter, mind-devastating terror, you pick up a hoe and begin hacking at the ground where one soldier is pointing. Through your fear, through your shock, through the terror, you have only one impossible realization—this trench is for you. For your dead body. You are going to be killed.

You hack away; you pull the loose dirt out with the hoe; you hack again and again. You stop crying. You don’t hear the cannon in the distance or the shooting nearby. You hear but barely recognize the scream of the girl who was digging near you, but made a break for it. She is tripped by one of the soldiers, and then is stabbed in the leg—you refuse to look as she writhes on the ground and shrieks and screeches while being stabbed in the other leg, and then in one arm, then the other, and finally in the stomach. It’s a calculated lesson for you, which you dimly recognize, and you blank out the girl’s moans and cries for her mother.

Now you’re resolute and focused. You hurry up your digging. You want to get it over with. Your body has grown cold. You shiver. Your mind closes down as you hack and pull the dirt, and deepen the trench with the others. Your soft hands, used to books and pencils, are bleeding and sore; your body is getting heavy and fatigued. But you feel nothing.

You and the others have dug three feet down. You are on automatic. Four feet. Then five. Several of the girls and two of the boys have collapsed in heaps at the edge from the unaccustomed labor, or have fainted from fear.

[sukhoiman]

(continued...)

Someone yells, “Stop. Enough. Get out of the trench and line up on the edge.” This is it, but your mind refuses to recognize it. Your body obeys and lines up with the others. You see soldiers standing about twenty feet away with automatic rifles, but it means nothing.

You stand. You think of nothing. There is no passing time. You don’t see that the fire in the dormitories has nearly burned out, or that the smoke is drifting away, leaving the beautiful morning to prize. You don’t see the robin’s egg-blue of the sky, the gentle white clouds; you do not register the sound of birds chattering. You don’t even think of your loved ones, of your lost future, of your lost hopes, of your dead dreams. Of all your wasted study and effort.

Then, Brrrttt! Brrrttt!

Your body twitches from the impact of bullets ripping across your chest, blowing your last breath out the holes in a red mist. Now your body is as dead as your mind; you fall backward into the trench to be covered with dirt.

And how was your death received? The actual messages between the soldiers that killed you and army headquarters were intercepted. We know what was said. Your soul might be happy to know that you contributed to a prized well done.

The message was this:

“What do you think would be the approximate number of casualties at the university—just give me an approximate number in your view. What will be the number killed or wounded or captured. Just give me the rough figures”.

“Wait. Approximately three hundred.”

“Well done. Three hundred killed? Anybody wounded or captured?”

“I believe in only one thing—three hundred killed.”

“Yes. I agree with you that is much easier. No, nothing asked. Nothing done, you do not have to explain anything. Once again well done. Once again I would like to give you shabash and to tell all the boys . . . for the wonderful job done in this area. I am very pleased.”



The Pakistan military ultimately went on to murder about 1,500,000 Bengalis and Hindus. Only India’s invasion stopped them. The Indian army rapidly defeated them, and midwifed the formal independence of East Pakistan, which promptly named itself Bangladesh.


Scott Lamb:

The war for liberation that broke out in March 1971 in Bangladesh stemmed from the election of the Awami League, which demanded independence for Bangladesh, in what was then East Pakistan. The genocidal "Operation Search Light" was carried out against Bengalis by the West Pakistan army as a response. The ten months of killing resulted in the deaths of an estimated 500,000 to 3 million people, mostly Hindus. "Kill three million of them," then-Pakistani President Yahya Khan reportedly said at the time, "and the rest will eat out of our hands." None of the Pakistani generals involved in the genocide has ever been brought to trial, and remain at large.


Of course if I post bengali and Indian articles, you will say they are biased, so I have limited myself to only western authors. If you would like any more proof such as pictures, let me know.

Really? Indians is much better off than your average Pakistani!

Children Underweight Rate

#1 India 18%
#2 Eritrea 17%
#3 Ethiopia 16%
#4 Yemen 15%
#5 Niger 14%
#6 Pakistan 13%
#7 Burundi 13%
#8 Cambodia 13%
#9 Bangladesh 13%
#10 Laos 13%

OMG so Pakistanis have 5% better nutrition rates for children. Its like you were digging around UNTIL you were able to find one statistic where Pakistan was miraculously better than India. Good for you.

Lets have a look at the other statistics:

GNP per capita (PPP): India: 3100 Pakistan 2200

(India's is higher by 41% and is widening as we speak).

Infant mortality: India: 56 Pakistan 72:

29% higher death rate for Pakistanis.

I can find so many more if you want.

1962 was a case of miscommunication and mispreparation.

No it was a case of you got your a$$ kicked.

Hey it was one small remote piece of land. Not a whole section of your country with half your population .

Yes! If India even thinks about invading its automatically a nuclear war! Sorry but you can talk of India surviving all you want, But India will be completely in the dark ages and the chances are that what little will remain of India will destroy itself by civil war (No shortage of insurgenices in India without Nuclear war) You can forget Superpower!

How true were Baburs words “Hindustan is a country that has few pleasures to recommend it. The people are not handsome; they have no idea of the charms of friendly society, of frankly mixing together or of familiar intercourse. They have no genius, no comprehension of mind, no politeness of manner, no kindness or fellow-feeling, no ingenuity, no mechanical invention in planning or executing their handicraft, no skill no knowledge in design or architecture. They have no horses, no good flesh, no grapes, or muskmelons, no good fruits, no ice, no cold water, no good food or bread in their bazaars, no baths, no candles, no torches not a candlestick.”

1) There will be no Pakistan left. Only Pakistani diaspora around the world. They will have a piece of smouldering glass to call home. India will survive a nuclear exchange, and we will rise again from the ruins, as we always have.

Anyways, our economy is growing and we are actively pursuing an effective ABM shield, and keeping peace at the table. Once we have outgrown Pakistan by several dozens and dozens of magnitudes, we can disarm Pakistan by other means.

2) Its funny that you should bring up Babur. This was one of his homesick quotes. He made many similar ones when he came to Afghanistan, but later he did make better comments as he settled in. Same case with Hindustan. It might be worth noting that he made this comment near the very beginning of his invasion while he was at Taxila (in modern day Pakistan). So it proves two things:

1) Indus valley, Punjab and the rest were all part of Hindustan
2) The area of Pakistan had conditions described in his quote. He later revised his remarks once he had taken India proper and based his capital in the better, more lush, provided and cultural part of Hindustan.

[sukhoiman]

I wont even reply to your other posts, until you provide a link.

[karan]

Quote:1. Before the advent of Islam, the majority of people in the region of Pakistan practised Buddhism, Zoroastrianism

Buddha was born in India or Nepal. He was not born in Present day Pakistan. We know that Buddism existed in areas like Bamiyan. What does this say. It says that India extended from Present day Afghanistan and covered all of Present day Pakistan.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/sep/16spec.htm

Buddha's Enlightenment at Bodh Gaya or present day Bihar.
http://www.kadampa.org/english/refer...ightenment.php

[The Negotiator]

Nah, when we see how Pakistan is failing and becoming a terrorist haven, we are thankful that your scum have a country of your own. This way we can focus on our economic growth without having to worry about engaging in terrorism and propogating doctrines to our people.

I find that funny; India has more terrorist groups active than any other country to name a few:

Christian

* Nagaland Rebels (1947-present) Active in predominately Christian state in Hindu majority India. Involved in several bombings in 2004. Goal: Independence from India after annexing parts of neighboring Indian states and Burma if it has Christian majority.
* National Liberation Front of Tripura (1989-present) A group that seeks the independence of Tripura from India to create a Christian Tripura.


Sikh (Khalistan)

* Babbar Khalsa
* International Sikh Youth Federation
* Dal Khalsa
* Bhinderanwala Tiger Force
* Saheed Khalsa Force
* Khalistan Liberation Tiger Force
* Khalistan Commando Force
* Khalistan Liberation Front
* Khalistan National Army

Hindu

* Shiv Sena A Hindu militant group, Shiv Sena or "The Army of Shiva the Destroyer" is a legal right-wing political party in India designated only by one nation (Pakistan) as a terrorist group.

* VHP A Hindu militant group, was once banned by Indian government

* Bajrang Dal Hindu militant outfit established as the terorist arm of the VHP-RSS's Sangh Parivar

* Patit Pawan Sanghatana ultra-fascist Hindu organization founded by Savarkar which rejects the extremist Sangh Parivar as "contaminated by Socialism"

* Shambaji Brigade Hindu youth group which attacked the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute (BORI) because it had been used by James Laine, who wrote a critical history of Shivaji

* Ranvir Sena Organization of 'upper castes' to suppress emancipation demands by 'lower castes' in Bihar.

Others

# National Development Front (NDF)- Islamic terrorist group having links with Al Qaeda and other jihadi orgs.Based in Kerala , India

#National Socialist Council of Nagaland

#Naxals or Naxalites

#People's War Group

#United Liberation Front of Assam

#Ranvir Sena

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_group

I can provide you with millions more if you wish.