Does Israel need more fighter jets?

[Roland]

Without Germany, Israel would either upgrade old submarines, produce it's own submarines (at higher costs, though still it's the preffered option for us) or co-develop in collaboration a new submarines with any friendly Asian country, such as India, Singapour, South Korea or Japan. It comes down to money. German submarines are cheaper, mostly because of Germany goverment subsedies. Without which, Israel would doubtly involve herself with European made platforms. These subsedies were given for the sake of their indusries, not the sudden love of Israel.

Any way, had Israel was willing to invest more money, we could have get other, better submarines from other countries.

India's Singapor's and South Korea's navys have submarines made in germany. Only Japan has homemade ones.
The submarine deal has a lot to do with patented technology. While submarineconstruction is a german specialty, (here is a list of HDW's submarines) I am guessing that a big portion of the patented submarine's tech is israeli owned - that makes the heavily modified 209 "Dolphin" class very israeli but built in the worldwide best construction site for conventional submarines.
You can't compare the submarine deal with a shopping tour in your local mall in Beer Sheva - although that might be complicated, too.

[TDidier]

To lose it's hypocracy, and for us Israelis, to weaken our automatic trust in America. It's demaging.

lol!!! You're kidding, right? Franch and German armies, exist mostly on paper. Israel alone, has seven times more tanks then France or Germany. The french have never won a war since Karl the great. The Italians had had lost the war against the Ethiopians in 1911...

You are right only if you compare french active and israeli active+reserve, about Germany, you are definitly wrong, they have twice your number of MBTs (main battle tank) and we are talking here only about Leopard 1 and 2 (uncomparably powerfull regarding the mass of israelly old stuff).

About french victories since Karlus Magnus, there was some defeates but the victories are in more large numbers in your history books.

Thanks all mighty, that Germany has no army today. They have constitional
German arms industry is amazing in some fields. The Leopard IIA6 is the Merkava's most terrible enemy. But I have little respect for their Euro-fighters. Bottom line, Israels defense industry is still superior to European war industry, and in some fields (such as robotics, avionics and missile technology) we are superior to American's technology. Yet, on Arab hands, such technology would cost us Jews, dearly. A source of much grief. I have no idea why such indusrty is allowed to exist in Europe.

German has no army , you are so funny...

Actually, israeli industry is a good war time industry (and in fact the lone israelian indusry) but is certainly not superior to european peace-time industry, you are dreaming there.
Are you superior to american industry? But, you are in the american militaro-industrial complexe, that is the only way that pentagone has found for a rentabilisation for the billions they are giving to Isreal ! !

[Roland]

German has no army , you are so funny...

Germany has about 850 Battle Tanks operational (Leopard 2 only), but they only crowd our theme parks, since we have no army but 250,000 donothingers dressed in green, entertaining an audience of 100,000 who dress like normal people. It must be some kind of time-sharing tourism (postcards form Yugoslavia and Afghanistan) rip-off because it is very expensive ($30bn) and can't be cancelled.

[TDidier]

Germany has about 850 Battle Tanks operational (Leopard 2 only), but they only crowd our theme parks, since we have no army but 250,000 donothingers dressed in green, entertaining an audience of 100,000 who dress like normal people. It must be some kind of time-sharing tourism (postcards form Yugoslavia and Afghanistan) rip-off because it is very expensive ($30bn) and can't be cancelled.

Probably yes, that why German army rent her 5000 others Leopards from her stock to the ski stations during winter season to secure the pists...

[Gilgamesh]

You are right only if you compare french active and israeli active+reserve, about Germany, you are definitly wrong, they have twice your number of MBTs (main battle tank) and we are talking here only about Leopard 1 and 2 (uncomparably powerfull regarding the mass of israelly old stuff).

Israel has no "old stuff". We have almost 4,000 tanks, a about a quarter of them in active service, made up mostly from Merkava mkI to IV. The anciant M-60's Pattons, were upgraded and refitted with systems you can only dream of. (no links... personal information... too shu-shu to mention ).
The last people of faced our "anciant relics", like the M-4 Super Sherman in the six days war, were the Arabs... who took off their boots and scattered like crazy.

About french victories since Karlus Magnus, there was some defeates but the victories are in more large numbers in your history books.

Please remind me of large scale durable French victories since Karl the great.
The little Italian Bonapart, has united Europe though in some cost.. but couldn't secure his victories... so what was the net result?

I know quite a bit of war history and French history of defeats. Please recall to me the last meaningful French military victory. If there was any...

German has no army , you are so funny...

In relative terms, Germany has no army to mention, and it's a GOOD thing!

Actually, israeli industry is a good war time industry (and in fact the lone israelian indusry) but is certainly not superior to european peace-time industry, you are dreaming there.

Our missiles can chew up and anciant relics you produce anytime. Our defense industry leads the way for the rest of our hi-tech sector... which in Europe is crumbling... due to high taxations and brain drain... most of your Enginneers, doctors and Scientists are either new comming immigrants stopping by on the way to America, or Jews who are about to move back to Israel.

Are you superior to american industry? But, you are in the american militaro-industrial complexe, that is the only way that pentagone has found for a rentabilisation for the billions they are giving to Isreal ! !

Ture, America shops for R&D and different other items in Israel, but we keep for ourselves the greater and better systems. Our missiles are smarter and cheaper then the Americans, as one example. Our night vision technology is equall or superior to the Americans. So does human engineering.

The Arrow system. Israel is the ONLY country in the world which offers her citizens with ACTIVE defense against incoming missiles. Europe or America don't have that techonolgy yet... Our civilian passanger planes are also the only ones fitted with active defense against missiles. Next time, fly El-Al.

We will have the money to self produce 100% of our millitary needs.

[Gilgamesh]

The submarine deal will continue. Unless the green win the next elections with a majority
The second generation dolphins has cruise missile launchers and a fuel cell/diesel hybrid engine.
But then *nothing* would make Germany an ally in your eyes.

I'd much rather Israel to fully self produce the submarines we need.
I don't turst Germany or the Germans. Germany has so far done nothing to prove or attempt to prove its committment for the survival of the Jewish people or even limited understanding for Israel's right of self defense.

Israelis like me, will go on do reserve duty and even fight if needs be, regardless of what the Germans or other Europeans think of us. Yet, in forums like this, I am strongly opposing the hypocratic European-German stance which is stongly anti-Israeli. Germany cannot claim to be changed people while holding such anti Israeli positions. I mean, the greatest ally of the Germans in the ME is: IRAN!!! I can not ignore that fact, and can't believe Germany "new attitude" toward Israel and the Jews. Germans are Germans, even if they change their costumes.

[Gilgamesh]

India's Singapor's and South Korea's navys have submarines made in germany. Only Japan has homemade ones.
The submarine deal has a lot to do with patented technology. While submarineconstruction is a german specialty, (here is a list of HDW's submarines) I am guessing that a big portion of the patented submarine's tech is israeli owned - that makes the heavily modified 209 "Dolphin" class very israeli but built in the worldwide best construction site for conventional submarines.
You can't compare the submarine deal with a shopping tour in your local mall in Beer Sheva - although that might be complicated, too.

I am currently studing procurment. The differences are not that great, only the process is longer and slower. The basic motivations and calculations are identical.

Israel should invest in our own industry, produce our own neval forces and compete with the Germans and others for diesel Submarines. We already procude our own missile boats and able to self produce even figates. Each with the punch of a destoryer at the least.

[TDidier]

Israel has no "old stuff". We have almost 4,000 tanks, a about a quarter of them in active service, made up mostly from Merkava mkI to IV. The anciant M-60's Pattons, were upgraded and refitted with systems you can only dream of. (no links... personal information... too shu-shu to mention ).

Let's say 4000.

Your Merkeva from all variant from those lasts 25 years are less than the half of that.
The rest is based on your "superM60" and... Centurion... M48... T62 and T65 ! ! !

Nothing to hadd on your impressive infantry armoured combat vehicle force .

The last people of faced our "anciant relics", like the M-4 Super Sherman in the six days war, were the Arabs... who took off their boots and scattered like crazy.

No, Sherman faced nothing but machine guns.
The tank battle was won by AMX-13 and airforce.

Please remind me of large scale durable French victories since Karl the great.
The little Italian Bonapart, has united Europe though in some cost.. but couldn't secure his victories... so what was the net result?

The net result? France...

I know quite a bit of war history and French history of defeats. Please recall to me the last meaningful French military victory. If there was any...

No, you don't even have a good knowledge of french defeats, there is more than you are able to imagine, but on the other hand the victories are more numerous in all part of the world.

[Mediocrates]

Yes but for the numbers of craft you would need, building a naval shipyard of this class would be inordinately expensive. This is why the Saar 5 corvettes (really Frigates on a power to size basis) were built in the US. I think subs are even harder to build and a lot more specialised so Israel will probably continue to outsource their designs to American and European and possibly Asian yards. BTW Egypt gave a $29 million design bid to VT Halter marine (US) for a 200ft fast missile ship. The spec is for up to $450 million for 3 ships.

[Gilgamesh]

Let's say 4000.

Accepted.

Your Merkeva from all variant from those lasts 25 years are less than the half of that.

Agreed

The rest is based on your "superM60" and...

Which is almost as good as the Merkava, improved armor, new barrle, new engine... from the original tank, only the haul remains.

Centurion... M48... T62 and T65 ! ! !

Actualy, these were T-54. T-54 had limited use in Yom Kippur war, at the bridge head on the African side of Suez canal. A single patrol of these tanks caused more havoc confusion and demage on the Egyption side then armies of modern tanks would ever do.
Other then that, as tanks, these things never put into regular use. Not even in reserves.

M-48 were upgraded several times to be on the same level as the Super M-60's. Check this out!

Today, these anciant T-54 relics were refited, re-armored into the world biggest meanest heaviest IFV's. Anyway, they are going to be scrapped, as the new IFV's would be based on Merkavas.

Nothing to hadd on your impressive infantry armoured combat vehicle force .

We have the best IFV's on the face of the earth, and that sir, is the truth. As I have explained in great length above.

No, Sherman faced nothing but machine guns.

Which points out on good tactics and good tank use.

The tank battle was won by AMX-13 and airforce.

airforce yes. AMX-13 are not exactly tanks. They lack the armor.

Super Shermans in 1973, were equipped with AMX-13 guns. AMX-13 were used as tank destroyers, not in unique formations. AMX-13 is more like a self proppelled anti-tank gun then actual tank. In other words, it is wrong to call these things tanks at all. In Yom Kippur there weren't any.

The net result? France...

Exist due to a balance of powers, not by it's own power. The fact was the occupation of France was opposed and prevented by foreign powers, not local efforts or courage.

No, you don't even have a good knowledge of french defeats, there is more than you are able to imagine, but on the other hand the victories are more numerous in all part of the world.

With all respect to french fiction and fiction writers, their works do not count as actual military history.

Bottom line is, 90% of your military cars and vihicls won't handle a simple modern land mine, let alone IED. European army can't handle alone any majore threat, from outside or from within. You're TOTALLY dependent on the Americans and the Brits. So you have no real basis for your patronization over us. Europe decays, never too early.

[Gilgamesh]

Yes but for the numbers of craft you would need, building a naval shipyard of this class would be inordinately expensive. This is why the Saar 5 corvettes (really Frigates on a power to size basis) were built in the US. I think subs are even harder to build and a lot more specialised so Israel will probably continue to outsource their designs to American and European and possibly Asian yards.

I don't think we have problems with design. It constraction and the facilities for large scale constuction of that kind. Yet it's not something which is beyoned our capabilities. Also, it is possible for us, to collaborate with other countries. Built ship jointly with other Asian countires, co-operate with India or Korea.

BTW Egypt gave a $29 million design bid to VT Halter marine (US) for a 200ft fast missile ship. The spec is for up to $450 million for 3 ships.

Most distrasing news. These would be the first full missile destroyers in the region since the 60's. It means a new branch in our arms race. Israel would soon need destroyers ourselves. There have been rumers in that direction for many years. A new class of ships in our navy, bigger then current used missile corvets.

[Roland]

Quote:
BTW Egypt gave a $29 million design bid to VT Halter marine (US) for a 200ft fast missile ship. The spec is for up to $450 million for 3 ships.

Most distrasing news. These would be the first full missile destroyers in the region since the 60's. It means a new branch in our arms race. Israel would soon need destroyers ourselves. There have been rumers in that direction for many years. A new class of ships in our navy, bigger then current used missile corvets.

"Selling us submarines does not make Germany an ally" - selling Egypt destroyers does not make the US an ally?

[Gilgamesh]

"Selling us submarines does not make Germany an ally" - selling Egypt destroyers does not make the US an ally?

complex.
On one hand, what the USA is doing is undermining Israels security and forces the region into further stage of the arms race. On the other hand, Egypt is technicly in peace with Israel. Nobody knows for sure how stable is the ragime there. We in Israel strong afraid a scenario in Egypt along the lines of Iran in 1979, where planty of Western equipement fall into the hands of Islamist fundementalists.

A friend of the current ragime in Iran cannot be a true friend of ours. This is one of the key descriptions of modern Germany.

[Roland]

A friend of the current ragime in Iran cannot be a true friend of ours. This is one of the key descriptions of modern Germany.

Germany is not a friend of Iran.

[Gilgamesh]

Germany is not a friend of Iran.

Just look what the google brought in...

Germany-Iran relations

Let's see what's the world fact book has to say:
Imports - partners:
Germany 12.8%, France 8.3%, Italy 7.7%, China 7.2%, UAE 7.2%, South Korea 6.1%, Russia 5.4% (2004)
Source

Visit this post soon, I'll find the time to update it, add more links.