Chavez of Venezuela makes Antisemitic Speech

[takeo]

Mil

I myself remember empty shelves at food stores.

But there was always food available, but you couldn't always buy have what you were looking for. In there was always all kinds of food in the markets, altough more expensive than in the stores. Some people always had a bag in case they saw some food which was usually unavailable in the stores such as bananas. Today you can find anything you like, but many people are unable to buy it with their small salary.

Source.

ok, I will try to find on the internet, what exactly do you want? That electrivity was reliable during Soviet-times (I think you know this yourself) or that electricity is unreliable these days?

tourism means that people would rent out houses from the locals.

Yes (still so, that's what we usually did, asking for komnata in markets in regions we didn't know anyone), but hotels and sanatoria were more occupied than today as well in Georgia.

As I said before - nobody knew anything back in USSR.

They KNEW if they had enough food, electricity etc.

I don't really understand this Russian fascination of yours.

Maybe the roots thing, since I lived all my life in Western Europe?

As far as living standards in Russia - Moscow and St Petersbrg are definetly are not the only places in Russia. Have you been to lets say Voronez or may be Novosibirsk?

I know, I've been to Sverdlovsk, Vladikavkaz (not exactly the most wealthy region of Russia...) etc. And yes Russian life standard is still much lower than during the 80's, except in Moscow or Saint-Petersburg (hughe difference) but still compared to Georgia, uzbekistan or Ukrain Russians are well off. Belarussians have lower salaries than Russians but pay much less for everyday commodities while corruption and bribery is much less, so quality of life is generally better.

That's what Breznev said. In fact in USSR nobody knew anything. USSR had its shared of serial killers, pedophiles, natural and man-made diseasters and epidemics, political conflicts, prolonged violence within many of its lands - but you did not know about it.

Well, everybody knew about the rostov-killer during the 80's for example...

Nobody kept track of anything including the number of those who were homeless or went hungry hence homelessness in USSR was strictly prohibited! It was not any different in Georgia.

That's true, but how many people were really homeless compared to today?

In USSR what would happen to a person if his flat would burn-down, for example? Do you think the government would give them a new apartment or housing? How was it done exactly - do you know?

I don't know, explain me.

Or do you think the conflict in Chechnya, right down the street from Georgia, started yesterday? There were violent demonstrations and shootings in Chechnya since 1960s!!!!

I know, but it didn't escalate into a full-blown conflict.

My father, when in the army back in the mid-70s, was called upon to put down a violent armed revolt in some place in Khazakhstan!!!! According to my Dad a few hundred people were killed!!!! Did you ever hear of anything like that?!!!!

Not everything, but my nephew served in the army near Baikonur and had some stories to tell, still what did you expect in a huge country like the Soviet Union with so many cultures and potential for problems? I never said the Soviet Union was perfect, but it was better than the current poor condition of most inhabitants and the worrying level of unequality, carelessness and corruption. But still there was a certain stability, discipline, and the general life quality was higher than today.
Also Russia (nor Georgia) is not a western country, never was and never will be, it's not really fair to compare it to France or the US, rather to countries such as Turkey. (likewise you can't compare Cuba to the US rather to other Caraibian countries)
By the way, I think corruption, arbitrariness and mismanagment was a big problem in the USSR (as in today's Russia and former Soviet Union), and that's the reason why the system collapsed, not because it was not sustainable. According to my parents corruption and mismanagement got the higher hand since the '70's, before that the Soviet-Union was rather a succes-story.

[takeo]

Well takeo thats what you get for tranfering your entire economy to war, especially if you do it in a communist state, afterall if in a socialist economy state if the entire government industry is doing the war thing were is the profit coming from to support military and people (Apart from arms sales which are rarely enough to support an entire nation)?

What do you mean, civil war in Georgia ended more than a decade ago, still living standards are on an African level and lightyears behind the ones they had in the 80's...

[takeo]

these statistics tell the real story:

How many packages comprising seven staple foods could be bought in CIS capitals for average August 2001 wages?
And how many similar food packages could be bought in former Soviet republics for 1988-vintage wages?


CIS countries

(Soviet republics
in 1988)
The number of food packages that were bought for average wages in September 2001 The number of food packages that were bought for average wages in 1988
Minsk
(Belarus) 26 food packages 24 food packages
Astana (Kazakhstan) 24 23.6
Moscow (Russia)
18.5 24
Kiev
(Ukraine) 15.6 22.6
Kishinev (Moldavia) 9.6 20.1
Bishkek (Kirghizia)
7.8 19
Tbilisi
(Georgia)
5.7-6.8 17.4
Dyushambe (Tajikistan)
3.1 17.7

http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/5558-12.cfm

[Tatiana]

eWire is using their internet payment to sell t-shirts from terrorist groups as the PFLP and FARC!

You can check this here: http://www.fightersandlovers.com

Fighters and Lovers is a terrorist organization in Denmark that sells t-shirts to support these terrorist groups. I think they must be banned around the World!

[Cato]

What do you mean, civil war in Georgia ended more than a decade ago, still living standards are on an African level and lightyears behind the ones they had in the 80's...

I mean the arms race, after Reagan devoted unprecedented amounts of money on the American Arms Industry the Socviets did the same thing, it is historical fact, you can check it in any history book if you don't believe me. Unfortunately for the Soviets devoting the same unprecedented efforts to armament that America did proved self destructive because the USSR state controlled economy had no private sector to make up for the lack of profits from government controlled industries (Which were creating weapons).

Nobody can beat America in economics, especially not a communist state that foolishly tries to put the same resources into the military as America does.

You have your own leadership to blame, you are the ones who fell into Reagans easily spottable trap.

Added on-takeo you also exagerate how far Russia fell, it is not at "African level", although compared to were it was before the escalation of the arms race it is..

Tatiana I agree with you.

[takeo]

I mean the arms race, after Reagan devoted unprecedented amounts of money on the American Arms Industry the Socviets did the same thing, it is historical fact, you can check it in any history book if you don't believe me. Unfortunately for the Soviets devoting the same unprecedented efforts to armament that America did proved self destructive because the USSR state controlled economy had no private sector to make up for the lack of profits from government controlled industries (Which were creating weapons).

Nobody can beat America in economics, especially not a communist state that foolishly tries to put the same resources into the military as America does.

You have your own leadership to blame, you are the ones who fell into Reagans easily spottable trap.

Added on-takeo you also exagerate how far Russia fell, it is not at "African level", although compared to were it was before the escalation of the arms race it is..

Tatiana I agree with you.

You are right of course, the Soviets were never at the same economic level as the US, don't forget that before the 30's Russia was still a devellopping country not even an industrialed country. Perhaps it was foolish even to attempt to win the arms race, after all there was still MAD... the eastern block didn't have to fear a military assault from the West which would destroy the the US and Western Europe as well. But on the other hand developping new weapons was good for the economy as well, weapons which could be sold to third world countries and communist friends...
Russia is not at African level but Georgia is... just check the UNDP website or the transparencyinternational websites... but even Russia made a great slide backwards.

[AraV]

takeo who recieved the weapons Russia developed while Ronald Reagan and George H Bush were presidents? The T80 and T90 are simply priced out of the market, especially since a readily available and extremely cheap T 55 is just as useful for a dictator who wants to crush an unarmed uprising. The Soviets made their weapons either worthless of too expensive by flooding the arms market. The result was as Cato said in the 80s when they devoted their entire industry to armaments everything broke down.

Afterall who on earth would buy an AK 74 for hundreds of thousands of dollars, when an AK 47 is available for $1.50?

[Tatiana]

eWire is using their internet payment to sell t-shirts from terrorist groups as the PFLP and FARC!

You can check this here: http://www.fightersandlovers.com

Fighters and Lovers is a terrorist organization in Denmark that sells t-shirts to support these terrorist groups. I think they must be banned around the World!

It's good to see the World is helping

Hello

We do not support terrorist groups and we have blocked those particular accounts.


Best Regards,
ewire support.

ewire
Søren Frichs Vej 3
DK-8000 Aarhus C
www.ewire.dk

[Illuminatus]

Looks like the Losing Left is still losing.

A defender of a pro-Saddam regime and an anti-Semitic Venezuelen dictator is silent today.

Here he writes:

[.. yes Chavez' ideas are spreading, leftists recently won elections in Chile and will most likely win the elections in Peru, Mexico and Nicaragua (remember the sandinists, they're back!) very soon to come. ..]

Interesting thing about Chile -- is that the center-left govenment actually strenthened the Free Trade Agreement with the US. Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, and now Peru have decided to follow Chile's lead by not seeking to overturn free-market economic policies.

Just this past week in Mexico City's La Cronica de Hoy, columnist José Carreño Carlón suggested the influence of Venezuela's leftist president Hugo Chavez was beginning to wane. Citing political campaigns in Colombia, Peru and Mexico, he asked if Latin America was seeing [. The End of the Autocratic Populist Boom?..]

http://www.cronica.com.mx/nota.php?id_nota=243496 (in Spanish)

Now comes yesterday's victory of Peruvian social democrat Alan Garcia over Chavez-backed nationalist Ollanta Humala, Carlon's thesis is getting new attention.

Garcia, who won with 55 percent of the vote, today declared that Chavez was "the only loser" in the Peruvian election. [.. Peru has said no to penetration, interference and international domination.. ] he said. Chavez openly supported Humala, a former military officer running a platform of rewriting the constitution and renegotiating the country's international business relations.

http://www.elcomercioperu.com.pe/Edi...da0517292.html (in Peruvian Spanish)

The Peru election comes a week after the landslide reelection of Colombia's conservative president, Alvaro Uribe, the first election result this year to encourage Chavez's foes in Latin America's mainstream media. El Comercio saw Uribe's victory as [..a strong wall of protection against the pretensions of Hugo Chavez...]

http://www.elcomercioperu.com.pe/Edi...al0514304.html

....And so we come down to the next big test of Latin America's political direction: Mexico, where conservative presidential candidate Felipe Calderon has pulled even with Leftist Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador in opinion polls by linking him to Chavez in campaign ads. Amlo, as he likes to call himself, suddenly denies any special connection to Chavez but says he is serious about helping the poor. Mexicans go to the polls July 2.

heh!

Is the spectre of popular anti-Semitism in Latin America - whipped up by a two-bit dictator - on the wane? It certainly isn't growing,

^_^

[Womble]

There wasn't hunger and there was plenty of food

Mil isn't the only one who remembers the empty shelves. My cousin sister once went to buy some flour and ended up fainting after eight hours in the waiting line.

reliable electricity

Reliable my butt. When my little sis was born, a few days before the New Years, they turned electricity AND hot water off for nearly a MONTH. Have you any idea what it's like to care for a newborn without heat or electricity when it's some -20 degrees Celcius outside?

tourism

Tourism in the USSR didn't quite mean what you think it meant.

most people did do rather well, etc. at least according to every Georgian I met, including Georgians who support the current pro-western president.

Georgia and the Baltic states aren't exactly representative of the former SU. They were richer indeed, mostly because the metropoly heavily subsidized them at the expense of the people in Russia proper, Ukraine and Belarus.

No sex in the USSR? I was 12 in 1990 so I wouldn't know, but my sister knows better...

It's a famous phrase said by some Soviet woman during the first Soviet-American live TV encounter event.

[Womble]

these statistics tell the real story:

How many packages comprising seven staple foods could be bought in CIS capitals for average August 2001 wages?
And how many similar food packages could be bought in former Soviet republics for 1988-vintage wages?


CIS countries

(Soviet republics
in 1988)
The number of food packages that were bought for average wages in September 2001 The number of food packages that were bought for average wages in 1988
Minsk
(Belarus) 26 food packages 24 food packages
Astana (Kazakhstan) 24 23.6
Moscow (Russia)
18.5 24
Kiev
(Ukraine) 15.6 22.6
Kishinev (Moldavia) 9.6 20.1
Bishkek (Kirghizia)
7.8 19
Tbilisi
(Georgia)
5.7-6.8 17.4
Dyushambe (Tajikistan)
3.1 17.7

http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/5558-12.cfm

Average wages?

There is no such thing as average wages. It's like the average temperature in a hospital room- two patients are long dead, ten have a fever, but the average temperature between them is that of a healthy human body.

[Illuminatus]

For President-For-Life Chaves, a proven anti-Semitic dictator, this should come to no surprise.

[.. Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez announced Thursday he is recalling his envoy to Israel to express his indignation at what he called the "genocide" Israel was committing in Lebanon. The recall is one of the strongest diplomatic moves short of severing diplomatic relations. ..]

Chavez withdraws Venezuela ambassador in Israel

^_^

[takeo]

Average wages?

There is no such thing as average wages. It's like the average temperature in a hospital room- two patients are long dead, ten have a fever, but the average temperature between them is that of a healthy human body.

Average wage is used in economy along with BNP, etc. to determine the economic devellopment and living standards of a country. It's clear that in most ex-Soviet countries living standards are far worse than 20 years ago.

[takeo]

For President-For-Life Chaves, a proven anti-Semitic dictator, this should come to no surprise.

[.. Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez announced Thursday he is recalling his envoy to Israel to express his indignation at what he called the "genocide" Israel was committing in Lebanon. The recall is one of the strongest diplomatic moves short of severing diplomatic relations. ..]

Chavez withdraws Venezuela ambassador in Israel

^_^

A proven anti-semite? Proven where, in your own little nasty neo-con propaganda? Chavez recently made a tour to Belarus, Russia, China, Cuba and Iran. He bought a whole range of weapons from Russia. You never know when those warmongerers in Washington will decide to invade Venezuela, now that they failed to install a military regime to replace the elected Chavez.
Israel committed warcrimes and is destroying a neighbouring country so I think this move isn't spectacular at all, if it wasn't Israel but another country committing this crime they would have been embargoed and/or bombed already. More than half of the world condamned israeli actions, including the world largest countries such as Russia, China, France, Indonesia, Brazil, India, Italy, Spain, Turkey, etc. even HRW and the international tribunal are accusing Israel of warcrimes

[takeo]

Womble]

Mil isn't the only one who remembers the empty shelves. My cousin sister once went to buy some flour and ended up fainting after eight hours in the waiting line.

I agree life in the former SU was far from ideal (yes indeed even simple things weren't easy, there was too much bureaucracy, too much people didn't do their job properly. The state magazins were ridiculously cheap but they were poorly stocked, the markets were well stocked but expensive.), but it is worse now. They don't have to stand in lines anymore, but now they don't have enough money to buy food.(not even mentioning the deteriorating medical, educational, cultural, etc. infrastructure and the ever increasing corruption).

I didn't live in the SU, but everyone told me electricity was more reliable during Soviet times, but during the late 80's it deteriorated, as did the whole economy. I've been to Kyrgyzstan recently, not a single one I spoke said life has improved over the last 20 years.

Tourism in the USSR didn't quite mean what you think it meant.

I know people could travel anywhere in the former Soviet-Union during their free time, where this isn't possible any longer. (visa requirements for other ex-Soviet republics)

Georgia and the Baltic states aren't exactly representative of the former SU. They were richer indeed, mostly because the metropoly heavily subsidized them at the expense of the people in Russia proper, Ukraine and Belarus.

Even in Ukraine and most of Russia (except Moscow and a few regions with plenty of natural resources) living standards today are worse than 20 years ago, many people have to struggle to survive. Georgia was never richer than Russia(in absolute economic terms), but they had the advantage of plentyfull of fresh vegetables and fruits and a nice climate, they had however less industry than Russia, and nowadays nothing at all is left. Today Georgia is a disaster zone.

I think the Soviet economy needed reform, but the total disintegration and total adaptation of capitalism was a bad idea, which shrunk and damaged all former Soviet-economies. The Soviet-economy needed China-style reform, Belarus applied it and today it's the country with the highest living standards of the former Soviet-Union (except the Baltics, who became part of the EU)