Results 1 to 15 of 353

Thread: A future with Hamas

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Mira
    Guest

    A future with Hamas

    From the Friday, 23 December 2005 Wall Street Journal:

    STRAINED RELATIONS
    Odd Allies
    Bethlehem Mayor
    Courts Hamas,
    Stirring Up Region
    A Christian Fights Corruption,
    But Attracts Criticism;
    Politicizing a Holy City
    U.S. Consulate Takes a Pass
    By KARBY LEGGETT
    Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
    December 23, 2005; Page A1

    BETHLEHEM -- As Christmas approaches, a garland of white lights illuminates Star Street, the famous pathway to Manger Square in this city believed to be the birthplace of Jesus. But to organize this year's annual tourist spectacle, the city's Christian mayor relied on some unlikely helpers: leaders of the militant Islamic group Hamas, who are key members of his government.

    The collaborative municipal effort captures the unusual position that mayor Victor Batarseh finds himself in these days. Elected in May, he is the top public official in one of the holiest cities in the Christian religion. Yet he runs Bethlehem through a coalition dominated by Hamas, a group blacklisted by the U.S. and Europe as a terrorist organization.

    "It's time we open our hearts and minds to Hamas," says the 71-year-old mayor.


    Mr. Batarseh's embrace of Hamas helps explain a puzzle in Palestinian society: how an organization that prides itself on terrorizing Israeli civilians -- often by encouraging Palestinian youths to blow themselves up -- has become so popular and powerful.

    Born in the 1980s, Hamas has made its name by emphasizing Islamic religious piety and resistance to Israel's military occupation, often via terror attacks directed at Israeli citizens. For many Palestinians, however, the group's appeal lies with its reputation for battling endemic government corruption and providing effective, low-cost public services from education to medical care.

    Now, in the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza, the group is testing the breadth of that support. Under the late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, Hamas had very limited political power. But Mahmoud Abbas, Mr. Arafat's elected successor, has invited Hamas to participate in all levels of politics, including the Palestinian Authority, the quasigovernment he oversees.

    The decision is the centerpiece of a colossal bet that he can defang Hamas by enfolding it into the political process. Ultimately, Mr. Abbas hopes he can moderate the group by merging its military wing into the official Palestinian security forces -- an idea that's in sync with Mr. Abbas's mantra of "one gun, one law."

    So far this year, local elections have been held in more than 250 cities and villages. Hamas candidates have won about a quarter of these races, emerging victorious in major cities such as Nablus, Jenin and Qalqilya. The group has also done well in Gaza, its traditional stronghold. In many cases, Hamas is defeating candidates from Mr. Abbas's own secular Fatah Party, which has long dominated local politics. Hamas is now gearing up for a major push in Palestinian legislative elections scheduled for late next month that could prove a sharp blow to Fatah.

    The U.S. is a major backer of Mr. Abbas and his push for Palestinian democracy. But it continues to insist, along with the Israelis, that Hamas lay down its arms before joining into politics.

    The complex new alliances stand to have a profound effect on the region. They could prompt Israel to sever ties with the Palestinian Authority, damping hopes for a negotiated settlement. A Hamas victory in January might also endanger a U.S.-backed plan to provide as much as $9 billion in aid and investment to the Palestinians.

    Mr. Batarseh ran into problems with the U.S. shortly after taking office when he invited a group of foreign diplomats to come to Bethlehem to meet the new city government. His goal, he says, was to reassure them that Bethlehem would retain its Christian character, and to seek financial help with infrastructure projects. A $3 million solid-waste project was at the top of his list.

    The U.S. turned down his invitation. A spokeswoman for the U.S. Consulate in Jerusalem says it has no official contact with Mr. Batarseh, citing his political affiliations. Says Mr. Batarseh: "Soon every Palestinian city will have members of Hamas in their government, so I guess the U.S. will boycott all of us."

    Set in the hills of the West Bank about a mile outside Jerusalem, Bethlehem has a population of 30,000 and was once a majority Christian city. In the early 1990s, the demographic balance tipped in favor of Muslims. Today, the city has some 10 churches and about 15 mosques. Residents mainly toil in a tourism-based economy, although many wealthy Christians have moved away in recent years as the number of visitors dwindled.

    Mr. Batarseh, short with thinning white hair, was born and raised here. He attended medical school in Cairo and later did a stint as a medical officer in the Jordanian military. Like many Palestinians, Mr. Batarseh felt the tug of politics from a young age. After Israel gained control over the West Bank and Gaza in 1967, he joined a radical faction known as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestinian, PFLP, which was dedicated to fighting Israel.

    By the mid-1990s, the peace process with Israel was in full swing. Christian pilgrims poured into Bethlehem. Tourism revenues exploded. Beneath the surface, though, tension brewed. Much of the anger was directed at widespread corruption in the government, which was run by appointees of Mr. Arafat. A corruption scandal over the mishandling of the construction of a new bus station crystallized frustrations.

    When peace talks broke down in 2000, Bethlehem erupted into often violent chaos. Some members of Mr. Arafat's security forces joined the fighting under a group known as the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. As they battled Israel, many Brigade members also began demanding protection money from shop owners, local merchants say.

    Opening the Door

    The turning point came in April 2002. A group of armed militants -- the vast majority affiliated with Mr. Arafat's Fatah party -- took refuge in Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity as they fled Israeli forces. A standoff, televised live around the world, ensued for more than a month. It was resolved when militants were transported out of Bethlehem to Gaza and overseas.

    While their departure was a relief to many residents, it also opened the door wider to Hamas. The group expanded a medical clinic and strengthened its presence in a workers union. At the Salah El Din mosque, Hamas activists redoubled efforts to raise money for a day-care center and orphanage that catered to children whose parents had been injured or killed by Israel's military. Eventually, it expanded coverage to include 1,600 children -- Muslim and Christian. Each child was given a monthly stipend and free meat on holidays.

    With Mr. Arafat's death late last year, Bethlehem announced it would hold elections along with many other Palestinian cities. Mr. Batarseh decided to run for a seat on the city council, his first attempt at public office. His goal was to unseat members of Fatah, who had been running the city for nearly a decade.

    Historically, Bethlehem's mayor has always been a Christian; eight of the 15 municipal council seats are also reserved for Christians. Mr. Batarseh, a practicing Catholic, won the popular vote. But in order to become mayor -- a post determined by vote among city council members -- he had to choose between allies: Christian members of Mr. Abbas's Fatah party or Islamists aligned with Hamas and a smaller militant faction known as Islamic Jihad, which has also carried out numerous terror attacks.

  2. #2
    Mira
    Guest

    continued

    Weary of years of poor government, graft, nepotism and favoritism under the Fatah-run local government, Mr. Batarseh says he went with Hamas "because they aren't corrupt and because they are efficient." (Fatah officials acknowledge problems with corruption in the past and say the recent elections are aimed at promoting a new generation of leaders.)

    Mr. Batarseh struck a deal with the group: The two sides would run independent campaigns but focus on a single theme: clean, transparent, non-corrupt government. As part of the pact, they put religious issues to the side. After the final ballots were counted in late May, Hamas and two other, smaller factions tapped Mr. Batarseh for the mayor's slot.

    Settling into their new offices on Manger Square, Mr. Batarseh and his four Hamas city council colleagues -- including Hassan El-Masalmeh -- followed up on their promises with a torrent of change. They barred officials from using government cars for private business -- a common practice under the previous government. They cracked down on unauthorized merchants selling goods in the city and installed a new approvals process in the city's procurement office to reduce waste and ensure contracts went to the lowest bidder. They also removed seven people from the government's payroll who did no work.


    Such results have helped Hamas win support even among some residents who don't share its vision of a conservative Islamic state.

    But its formal involvement in local government has also stirred controversies large and small, especially among Christian and secular Muslim residents who've grappled with the rising influence of Islamists in the city for nearly a decade. In recent years, some Christian shop owners say they have felt pressure during the holy month of Ramadan to stop serving food during daylight hours, when religious Muslim are required to fast. Many establishments comply. Meanwhile, the Palestinian Authority has been late with its monthly budget payments to the city, saying that it is cash-strapped.

    "The mayor has turned Bethlehem into a political issue," says Nicola Canawati, a prominent Christian businessman and former city councilman. "And that is going to ruin our city." Adds Hanna Nasser, the city's former Christian mayor: "Bethlehem has become a symbol of the main issue we face in the region -- the spread of Islamic fundamentalism."

    At city hall, the secular atmosphere of the previous government shifted toward a more conservative Islamic one. Once accustomed to shaking hands with all members of the government, Christian female employees found themselves rebuffed by Hamas councilmen, who told them such physical contact violates Islamic principles.

    Tensions also grew between Mr. Batarseh and his Hamas colleagues. As part of their crackdown on corruption, Hamas members have sought to examine financial records of the previous government, including its former Christian mayor. Mr. Batarseh has resisted a public airing, fearing it could fuel religious tensions.

    Potentially bigger problems loom. Under Hamas's manifesto, formulated in the 1980s, all non-Muslims living in the Palestinian territories would be required to pay a special tax, known as al-Jeziyah. Muslims are exempted. "We in Hamas intend to implement this tax someday," says Mr. El-Masalmeh, the Hamas councilman. "We say it openly -- we welcome everyone to Palestine but only if they agree to live under our rules." Mr. Batarseh opposes the tax and says it will never be implemented.

    Common Ground

    For now, the two men have agreed not to discuss such matters. Instead, they focus their attention on management of daily life in Bethlehem. In recent weeks, they have been cooperating in raising funds for Christmas celebrations in the city and marshaling municipal workers to prepare for an influx of visitors during the holiday season. They also continue to find common ground in their staunch opposition to Fatah.

    Even so, painful uncertainties remain. Mr. Batarseh, for instance, says he opposes suicide bombings, but hasn't raised the issue with his Hamas colleagues for fear of antagonizing them. He also says he would be willing to support a territorial compromise with Israel if that would lead to the creation of a truly viable Palestinian state. The most important mission of all, he says, is improving the lives of Palestinians.

    Mr. El-Masalmeh takes a different view. Though he, too, wants to improve daily life in Bethlehem, he says suicide bombings are a legitimate form a self-defense that will continue until all of historical Palestine, including what is now Israel, is under Palestinian control. That militancy is reflected in a message written on a wall deep inside a neighborhood of Bethlehem known for its allegiance to Hamas. Spray-painted in black, it reads: "We Salute Our Symbolic Leader Osama Bin Laden."

    For Mr. Batarseh, such messages reinforce the need to bring Hamas into the democratic fold and put its most virulent positions to a test at the ballot box. "The only way to make Hamas more moderate is to bring them inside the system," says Mr. Batarseh, echoing Mr. Abbas's belief. "Cornering Hamas will only make them more extreme."

    Write to Karby Leggett at karby.leggett@wsj.com

  3. #3
    michal
    Guest
    And this is how they rewarded him for that: (link)

    More on how Bethlehem gained Muslim majority here.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    5,219
    Hamas Runs for Election Vowing Never to Talk to Israel or Disarm

    DEBKAfile Special Report

    January 8, 2006, 5:26 PM (GMT+02:00)





    Hamas campaigners, confident of a strong showing in the Jan 25 elections for the Palestinian legislative council, announced in Gaza City Sunday, Jan. 8, that, if elected, they will put an end to any Palestinian talks with Israel. Negotiations with the Zionist entity will only take place through the barrel of a gun, said the man topping the Hamas list, Ismail Haniya.

    Hamas Gaza leader Mahmoud al-Zahar dismissed European threats to cut off funds if the terrorist group enters Palestinian government. If they do, he said, “We have our sources in the Arab and Muslim world.” None of the West Bank local councils captured by Hamas is short of funds, he boasted.

    According to the last opinion polls, the gap between Mahmoud Abbas’ ruling Fatah and the Hamas challenger has further shrunk to 6-8%.This means that the Islamic terrorists who have vowed to destroy Israel have a good chance of winning the election in 17 days’ time. Even from second place, they can form a coalition government, set up an alternative administration to Fatah, or create an opposition bloc in parliament able to immobilize any government in which they are not partners.

    Sunday, Jan 8, at the first regular cabinet meeting in Jerusalem led by acting prime minister Ehud Olmert, Israeli defense minister Shaul Mofaz said he was confident the Palestinian poll would be delayed for fear of a Hamas victory. Mahmoud Abbas and fellow Fatah leader, the jailed Marwan Barghouti, have also admitted they would prefer a postponement.

    However, according to DEBKAfile’s political sources, this option is not theirs for the asking. It is solidly blocked by US president George W. Bush, who refuses to hear of any poll rescheduling in the Palestinian areas, just as he did in Iraq. To hold the Palestinians to the date – even at the price of a terrorist win - he sent US military coordinator Maj-Gen Keith Dayton post haste to the region Friday, Jan. 6. Monday, the general will receive reinforcements from Washington in the form of deputy national security adviser Elliot Abrams and undersecretary of state David Welch. In the first week of Ariel Sharon’s absence from the prime minister’s office, the Israeli government was seen pinning its hopes on an illusion.

    Over the weekend, when all Israeli eyes were fixed on Hadassah Ain Karem Hospital for the latest medical bulletins on Sharon’s condition, four dangerous developments unfolded in the Palestinian arena practically unnoticed.

    1. Mahoud Abbas (aka Abu Mazen) succumbed to the Fatah-al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades revolt against his administration in Rafah, the border town divided between the Gaza Strip and Egypt. He swallowed the conquest of the entire strategic border strip by this lawless group. Israeli intelligence regards this successful rebellion as the beginning of a revolt against Abbas’s authority that threatens to engulf other Gazan cities as well as the West Bank.

    2. In Khan Younes, 7 terrorist factions set up a local vigilante militia to enforce order in the South Gazan region that was formerly the site of Israeli Gush Katif. Calling themselves a police force, they have avowedly displaced the Palestinian Authority, driving another nail into the coffin of Abu Mazen’s rule and security control of the Gaza Strip.

    3. An increasing number of independent candidates running for office are turning to Hamas for patronage and campaign funding. A striking example is Dr. Ziad Abu Amar, a prominent Fatah figure who used to be Abu Mazen’s go-between with the Hamas on truce issues. This week, Abu Amar stood on one campaign platform with Mahmoud Al Zahar wearing a baseball cap in the Hamas color green.

    4. DEBKAfile’s counter-terror sources reveal that 10 radical Jihad Islami leaders headed by Abdallah Shami have passed through the Rafah crossing to Egypt on their way to the Saudi hajj city of Mecca. According to those sources, the group is rendezvousing there with Iranian Revolutionary Guards commanders of Tehran’s terrorist cells. Disguised as pilgrims, they are to discuss coordinating and funding a fresh terror campaign against Israel.

    Despite international guarantees, the Rafah crossing has deteriorated into a mainline transit hub whose main function is to ease terrorist movements between the Palestinian Gaza Strip, Sinai, Damascus and Tehran.

    The Israeli government, handicapped by Ariel Sharon’s abrupt disappearance from the scene of government, has still not got around to addressing any of these grave developments.

  5. #5
    Sumud
    Guest
    'A future with Hamas' makes little difference to Israeli policy towards the Palestinians. The underlying constant is not to engage in negotiations, but to force Israeli objectives onto a weak Palestinian polity.

    The rise of Hamas just changes the excuses employed amd makes the job a little easier. It requires no basic change in approach.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    N Carolina
    Posts
    30,616
    Hamas has always and already stated that it does not matter what Israel proffers or states. It's axiomatic one would not deal with someone who says they won't deal with you.

  7. #7
    lillic
    Guest
    i would just like to sasy, that as a plaestinian, and muslim, i'm terriffied of the idea that hamas are now in chrage, and that the only solution is to have 2 states! i'm sorry, i want to live amongst the israelis, like my grandfather used to, go to the same schools and grow up together

  8. #8
    Saffira
    Guest
    Lillic, who did you vote for in the Palestinian elections? because many Palestinians voted for Hamas because they thought that Hamas would better their living conditions, and because they feared that the PA, and Fatah had become stagnant and non-progressive. Hamas only want one thing, and that is not for the Palestinian people, but for their own "victory" which is to destroy Israel and all her people. If you are to make a difference in your stance, perhaps you and all those Palestinians who feel that Hamas should not be in power, should rise up and stand against them. But you know, that in doing this, you could lose your lives, but what do you do? live the rest of your life in misery, suppressed by Hamas, or break free and either stand up to them or leave, until you can see a safe passage back, if there is "ever" to be a safe passage back.

    You are in a very sticky position, and I am sorry that you have to live in fear from your own leaders, because Hamas will destroy the lives of the Palestinians who only want peace with Israel, because Hamas will not give up in their declaration of refusing to recognise Israels right of existence, and the terror, the fighting will continue, and the Palestinians will suffer at the hands of Hamas for bringing down death and destruction on them, because while Hamas and other Palestinian terror groups continue to try to destroy Jewish life, they will be hit much harder by the IDF in retaliation.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    5,219
    Quote Originally Posted by lillic
    i would just like to sasy, that as a plaestinian, and muslim, i'm terriffied of the idea that hamas are now in chrage, and that the only solution is to have 2 states! i'm sorry, i want to live amongst the israelis, like my grandfather used to, go to the same schools and grow up together
    Lillic,

    Welcome to the board.

    I believe that, if the PA committs to putting 100% effort stopping terror (including stopping incitement), that Israel could offer something along the lines of:

    All of Gaza, 95% of the WB, with Israel Annexing the large settlements, maybe a "lend lease" of Ariel, Israel giving the new Palestinian state the so-called "Arab triangle" and also Israel giving the Palestinian state administrative, but not security, control of Arab East Jerusalem as a sort of shared sovereignty, but with Israeli security control.

    Israel would want not just a peace agreement, but a presence (joint with Palestinian) at the borders, including the power to keep people out, but maybe, in return, could offer the same thing to the Pal Arabs on major Israeli terminals to stop anti-Palestinian terrorists from coming in or private arms shipments or what not. It would at least be symbolic.

    Some type of international based compensation scheme could be made for all of the refugees (on both sides).

    The goals would be as follows:

    To Address Palestinian needs by transfering as much land as possible and to get as many Palestinians as possible under Palestinian rule, as well as administrative control and joint sovereingty over Arab East Jerusalem and Al-Aqsa, as well as compensation for the Refugees.

    To Address Israeli security needs by the annexation of the large settlements blocks and keeping Israeli security control over Jerusalem, while also really dealling with Israeli security concerns by giving Israel real power as a partner in border monitoring. The latter would be softened in terms of blow to pride by giving the Palestinians similar rights in Israeli ports/terminals.

    A side effect is that if Israel and the Palestinians can control the borders to prevent terrorists from entering and, more importantly, weapon smuggling, then the security wall/fence can eventually come down.



    Let me add, though, I think this is about the Israeli red-line at this point. If the Palestinian people need more from Israel, or else it is war, I very much believe that no accommadation will be possible, and it will be war for a long time.

  10. #10
    physics
    Guest
    There is no future with Hamas, a terrorist organization. All they know is terror...they are incompetent in managing their own people and they will fail...they will all rot in their holes. So far, the Pals have always been busy with terrorism and nothing else...

  11. #11
    Jorge
    Guest
    From MGB8 #318:
    I believe that, if the PA committs to putting 100% effort stopping terror (including stopping incitement), that Israel could offer something along the lines of:

    All of Gaza, 95% of the WB, with Israel Annexing the large settlements, maybe a "lend lease" of Ariel, Israel giving the new Palestinian state the so-called "Arab triangle" and also Israel giving the Palestinian state administrative, but not security, control of Arab East Jerusalem as a sort of shared sovereignty, but with Israeli security control.

    Israel would want not just a peace agreement, but a presence (joint with Palestinian) at the borders, including the power to keep people out, but maybe, in return, could offer the same thing to the Pal Arabs on major Israeli terminals to stop anti-Palestinian terrorists from coming in or private arms shipments or what not. It would at least be symbolic.

    Some type of international based compensation scheme could be made for all of the refugees (on both sides).


    I find MGB8's outline for a proposal quite reasonable. If the new Israeli government were to propose something like this as a basis for negotiation, it is quite likely that it could pave the road towards an agreement.

    The precondition he makes of "a 100% effort to stop terror" on the part of the PA is more reasonable than the former Israeli precondition of "and end or a cessation of terror" before talks could start. More reasonable because Israel has been making "a 100% effort to stop terror" for a good many years without being able to stop it and hence, the former demand that the PA should manage to put an end to it was asking the impossible.

    There's though one (not a small) point which I would ommit from the outline, the one about : "giving to the new Palestinian State the so-called Arab triangle". This could not be carried out unless the Arab population of those towns agree to it and, furthermore, just a cursory examination of a map shows that such an exchange would not be in Israel's best interests.

    Once borders are determined, it is clear that Israel will reserve for itself "the power to keep people out", every sovereign state hast the right to do so.

    All in all a line of thought worth pursuing.

  12. #12
    nbarzelay
    Guest
    Before Israel goes on to make the same mistakes with Hamas as it has in trusting Fatah, making unreasonable concessions while the PA makes nothing but a half-assed promised of a 'hudna' while Hamas outsources its terrorist activities to Fatah and external Islamic factions, read the following article about Hamas's tactics un-beknownst to the brunt of the Quartet (except Russia ofcourse )

    Hamas's Tactics: Lessons from Recent Attacks

    http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=2382


    It's from 2005, but I doubt any real changes have occurred since that time.

    Any of you guys subscribers to Osint on Yahoo?

  13. #13
    user954651
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Mira
    "It's time we open our hearts and minds to Hamas," says the 71-year-old mayor.
    Our desperation for peace makes us weak. Hamas are not a peace partner, they are an international terrorist organisation who's mission is to eradicate the state of Israel, many American organisations, and the Jewish people as a whole. That is the same as the PLO, however Abbas prefers a slower more subtle method of extermination. Both organisations must be rejected and eliminated for a future where Israels existance is not under attack. Both organisations must be rejected and eliminated before we can reach a true peace.

  14. #14
    Jorge
    Guest
    From user54651's Post #350:

    “Our desperation for peace makes us weak”

    That is a bit of an overstatement, isn’t it? From where did you get the weird notion that Israel is desperate for peace? I'm asking because, the way I see it, Israel's positions are closer to your's:

    “Both organizations (Hamas and PLO) must be rejected and eliminated for a future where Israels existance is not under attack. Both organisations must be rejected and eliminated before we can reach a true peace.”

    In recent years Israel has been implementing policies designed to “reject and eliminate” both organizations. Some people may think that those policies are correct, even if they imply “rejection and elimination” of the two organizations that represent about 90% of the Palestinians. Within the context of those policies may be we should wait for the time when a future PZO (Palestinian Zionist Organization) emerges and wins the elections. Until then… we keep them under our boots.

    How do those polices rhyme with “Our desperation for peace makes us weak.” ?

    May be you should heed the advice you give to Pandora in your post #349, quote:

    If people keep believing propaganda then we will have a very dark future. Please do some research and learn the history to understand what is going on at the moment.

  15. #15
    user954651
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge
    From user54651's Post #350:

    “Our desperation for peace makes us weak”

    That is a bit of an overstatement, isn’t it? From where did you get the weird notion that Israel is desperate for peace? I'm asking because, the way I see it, Israel's positions are closer to your's:

    “Both organizations (Hamas and PLO) must be rejected and eliminated for a future where Israels existance is not under attack. Both organisations must be rejected and eliminated before we can reach a true peace.”

    In recent years Israel has been implementing policies designed to “reject and eliminate” both organizations. Some people may think that those policies are correct, even if they imply “rejection and elimination” of the two organizations that represent about 90% of the Palestinians. Within the context of those policies may be we should wait for the time when a future PZO (Palestinian Zionist Organization) emerges and wins the elections. Until then… we keep them under our boots.

    How do those polices rhyme with “Our desperation for peace makes us weak.” ?
    Quick reply:
    Israel is devided. Half of us are fighting, and the other half have given up. I refer to the half that has given up - the people who are so fed up with fighting that they are leaving... some of my cousins fall into this category, and despite the fact they have decided to leave, they still voted in favour of evicting hundereds of people from Gaza with no hopes of peace in return. Israel has been withdrawing land to an orginisation built on Nazism, the PLO.

    Some people think there may even be a civil war in Israel, however I hope it never comes to that.

    I love the PZO joke! And you are right there, the PLO and Hamas are (obviously) Palestinians, which is a grave problem.

    One thing I have done recently is seperate the PLO and Palestinians because seperating the two makes things simpler and makes peace so much closer. The PLO are a Nazi inspired terror organisation. The bleak truth though, is that most Palestinians are Nazi inspired - it's very disconcerting. Until the Palestinians are taught for peace we will not have peace.

    Link

    Most of my efforts go towards groups such as teachkidspeace.

    I talk in facts most of the time and have been discussing (aka. gathering new information) this issue for many years with all sorts of people including many Palestinians - one of whom I shared a blog (and said they lived in the "occupied West Bank") with and another who I am going to Greece with on Tuesday. I am always open to new information. If you have any, post away! I like raw facts best, and context is important.

    These last two posts are just my opinion, you can disagree if you like, but there really is not much to proove wrong. I do not think my statement "Our desperation for peace makes us weak." to be an overstatement.

    RE: In recent years Israel has been implementing policies designed to “reject and eliminate” both organizations.

    I presume this is just your opinion, or do you wish to categorically proove that statement?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Hamas threatens suicide attacks in U.K.
    By Womble in forum In The News
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 06-12-2008, 11:50 AM
  2. A fair AP report? Israel Launches Airstrikes Against Hamas
    By MGB8 in forum Israeli-Arab Conflict
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 09-29-2005, 03:59 PM
  3. EU Double Crosses Israel / Hamas Meetings
    By Womble in forum Israeli-Arab Conflict
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 06-16-2005, 08:30 AM
  4. Analysis: Hamas history tied to Israel
    By CrypticalPuzzle in forum Israeli-Arab Conflict
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-12-2003, 07:34 AM
  5. Despicable report re: Hamas by CNN
    By ibrodsky in forum In The News
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-26-2003, 04:22 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •