Recipe for Peace: Transfer Palestinians

gev · 06-27-2002, 01:45 PM

takeo,
the decision for this fight against the PA as well as with the other terror groups, is based on comprehensive intelligence reports that flowing from the field about the cooperation of the PA with these terror groups, as well as conducting terror activities of their own.

You talk about Sharon and his lust for war or conquest, but let me remind you that there are people that sit together with Sharon in the government that you would'nt suspect them for wanting to conquer the terretories like Shimon Peres, who support the current military operations as well.

Bush administration wants to replace Arafat, do you think that The US is so biased towards israel that they would, for no specific reason, support this kind of extreme opnion? which contradicts, btw, it's interest for immediate calm in the ME.

To understand this, you must put yourself in their position:
What if, hypotethicaly, you are now the PM of Israel and you are getting reports about Arafat and the PA involvement of Terror activities, building a packt with Iran and Iraq (who wants the destruction of Israel), conducting arms deals, building bombs etc. what would you do? would you still consider Arafat moderate?

**Mediocrates** · 06-27-2002, 02:31 PM

There are no advantages at all for anyone, except for the ultra's who want to see an Arab-free Eretz-Israel, or for the Arab ultra's, who would have a new opportunity and new
allies to (e)rase israel from the map.

Go ahead.... finish the sentence...'and create a Jew Free Judea and Samaria'.

takeo · 06-27-2002, 03:35 PM

"takeo,
the decision for this fight against the PA as well as with the other terror groups, is based on comprehensive intelligence reports that flowing from the field about the cooperation of the PA with these terror groups, as well as conducting terror activities of their own. "

the problem is that those intelligent reports accusing Arafat are somewhat biased and not convincing (at least the ones published in public).
Arafat is certainly not having any kind of deal with hamas, which always harmed his interests, or even the pflp.
Fatah on the contrary does attacks against israeli targets, but no suicide-missions inside israel aimed at civilians. their actions can be seen as legitimate answers to the israeli violence against the pa, the palestinian autonomous territory and the palestinian people in general. (both sides to not longer observe the oslo-agreements).
it is prooven that Arafat has lost controll over some segments of the Fatah and over the palestinian in general, but by bombing and condamning the only palestinian leaders that want peace with israel and call for an end to the violence is making the moderate palestinians weaker (the same way the suicide-bombings inside israel are making the moderate sraeli forces weaker).
It is an incredibly stupid policy to isolate Arafat and the pa because there is really noone to replace them except the radicals. And they will not give in to israeli pressure and change their leader, on the contrary this is making Arafat more popular. So by refusing to deal with arafat israel is imposing another difficulty in reaching a solution with the moderate part of the palestinian side. The chance that arafat will be reelected in the upcoming elections is around 90%.
about the us-policy, the us always considered Arafat as a partner, this change in policy came after intense israeli pressure and lobbying in the congress, and doesn't make the us-policy, which has been a disaster since Bush became president, any more consistent or effective, especially since the rest of the world and the palestinians themselves still recognise Arafat, which means they will have to deal with himor one of the pa, if they want a solution to the problem.

"You talk about Sharon and his lust for war or conquest, but let me remind you that there are people that sit together with Sharon in the government that you would'nt suspect them for wanting to conquer the terretories like Shimon Peres, who support the current military operations as well. "

a part of the left participated as well, and shimon Peres, with his constant treats to leave the coalition without actually doing it, hasn't improoved its credibility.

"To understand this, you must put yourself in their position:
What if, hypotethicaly, you are now the PM of Israel and you are getting reports about Arafat and the PA involvement of Terror activities, building a packt with Iran and Iraq (who wants the destruction of Israel), conducting arms deals, building bombs etc. what would you do? would you still consider Arafat moderate?"

i would first try to know if those reports are accurate (which is very doubtfull in this case), and than i would try secret contacts to find out what are the plans of the pa. if there would be any chance that they might negociate about real peace and an end to terror, than i would start official negociations combined with a cease-fire between the groups linked to Arafat and israel, if not, i would indeed continue the current operations or even crush totally the pa-leadership.
during this negociations, with international assistance, the palestinians would get everything they demanded, including a settlement for jerusalem and the refugees, on the condition that they make unconditionally an end to the terror-groups refusing to accept the cease-fire. if Arafat should not be able to do so than he should accept israeli and international military assistance, untill the terroris groups that refuse to accept the cease-fire are completely eradicated. once that is happened the israeli army should leave all the occupied territories and abandon all the settlements, with some compromise on jerusalem and the refugees.

elke · 06-27-2002, 05:22 PM

What makes you doubt the veracity of the reports, showing connection between Arafat, Iran, Iraq, and terrorist groups? This information has been accepted as authentic by all the intelligence agencies provided with it.

takeo · 06-27-2002, 06:15 PM

except some documents where Arafat signed papers for financial support to fatah (which is not very special because fatah is his own organisation) there is really nothing that indicates Arafat supported terrorism. there is no connection whatsoever between arafat and hamas.
what is Arafat's connection to Iraq?
about the "iranian ship" still many doubts prevail, and certainly there were no documents linking Arafat or the PA-leadership. i don't know about any other connections to Iran. (besides the us had connections with iran too, remember the iran-contragate scandall?)

anyway, even if all this is true, it doesn't mean israel can't negociate with Arafat, south africa also has excellent relations with iran and libia for example... does it make mbeki a terrorist?

**Mediocrates** · 06-27-2002, 06:28 PM

yeah. kind of. it does.

elke · 06-27-2002, 06:47 PM

South Africans do not import illegal arms into their territory from Iran. South Africans do not go around killing women and children with human bombs, whose families receive generous payments from Saddam for their "sacrifice".

What questions are remaining regarding Karin-A? Everyone knows by now that these arms were bought by the PA. Since Arafat is the only person authorized to sign over checks, it's clear that he had everything to do with it.

Arafat signed papers not to Fatah proper, but to Al Aksa Brigade members. The authenticity of these papers has been confirmed.

James · 06-27-2002, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by takeo
except some documents where Arafat signed papers for financial support to fatah (which is not very special because fatah is his own organisation) there is really nothing that indicates Arafat supported terrorism. there is no connection whatsoever between arafat and hamas.
what is Arafat's connection to Iraq?
about the "iranian ship" still many doubts prevail, and certainly there were no documents linking Arafat or the PA-leadership. i don't know about any other connections to Iran. (besides the us had connections with iran too, remember the iran-contragate scandall?)

anyway, even if all this is true, it doesn't mean israel can't negociate with Arafat, south africa also has excellent relations with iran and libia for example... does it make mbeki a terrorist?

Arafat is a known killer and terrorist. Of course he ordered the ship full of weapons. Nothing happens without his approval. Why would Israel trust the word of Arafat. His many lies betray him.

mulp · 06-27-2002, 07:49 PM

Wouldn't make more sense to "transfer" the Jews?

Its my understanding that many already have citizenship and family in the US, so setup a program to bring all Jews to the US. In fact, I seen reports that many have left Israel recently because of the poor economic conditions there.

The US economy would certainly benefit from the education and industry they would bring.

For those who want to labor in desert, there is always Texas, with major sections of the state in need of good business leaders. And there is California, another country, errr state in need of an economic boost.

elke · 06-28-2002, 02:23 AM

No, it wouldn't make more sense to transfer Jews. Jews are not the ones blowing up people in the cafes. SOME have American citizenship, but not very many - the last I heard, about 20% are from FSU, 40+ percent were born in Israel, and most of the others are from other countries they would rather not see again, for various reasons.

Vic · 06-28-2002, 02:50 AM

Originally posted by mulp
Wouldn't make more sense to "transfer" the Jews?

...

The US economy would certainly benefit from the education and industry they would bring.

For those who want to labor in desert, there is always Texas, with major sections of the state in need of good business leaders. And there is California, another country, errr state in need of an economic boost.

What about the poor, the elderly, the handicapped, the uneducated (like immigrants from Ethiopia for example)?

takeo · 06-28-2002, 04:06 AM

of course i don't agree with mulp either, but if this kind of idea would become popular, remember that it can be used against Jews as well...

Israel DOES blow up people in the Westbank and Gaza, i destroys buildings, terrorise the palestinians and killed 1000's of them, violates un-resolutions, etc. . But still it isn't a reason to take revenge on innocent israeli people;(the same applies for the palestinians)

Right, Mbeki a terrorist... i'm sure the southafrican regime tought the same in the 80's...

if saddam pays families of suicide bombers, what's the connection with arafat???

"What questions are remaining regarding Karin-A? Everyone knows by now that these arms were bought by the PA. Since Arafat is the only person authorized to sign over checks, it's clear that he had everything to do with it. "

ever seen any paper or document? it may be taken for granted in the pro-israeli press that arafat is involved in this, but there is no proove whatsoever. israel didn't accept any international independant research over the matter, as in jenin, one might wonder WHY.

"Arafat signed papers not to Fatah proper, but to Al Aksa Brigade members. The authenticity of these papers has been confirmed"

really???
i've read those documents, the only thing one can conclude is that he made payments to fatah-members, none of them any prooven connection to al-aqsa. The European commission has studied those documents and came to the conclusion that the israeli claim is nonsense.

But anyway, let's make things clear, when referring to terrorism i mean attacks against innocent civilians, after the israeli incursions in palestinian territory and the attacks against pa-facilities and people by the idf, the pa and fatah have every right to fight back against the IDF, that's not terrorism but legitimate self-defense.
Israel can never claim to be acting in self-defense as long as it is occupying the Westbank and Gaza.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...739466,00.html

http://media.guardian.co.uk/broadcas...678329,00.html

http://media.guardian.co.uk/broadcas...678202,00.html

"CNN chief accuses Israel of terror "

"BBC news chief condemns Israeli actions"

of course now he's the greatest anti-semit in world history blabla spare me the comments please, i've read them already...

**Mediocrates** · 06-28-2002, 04:35 AM

Well for one it' simply silly to point to propaganda and use it to say that no other point of view even exists.

Israel DOES blow up people in the Westbank and Gaza, i destroys buildings, terrorise the palestinians and killed 1000's of them, violates un-resolutions, etc

The last time you made a statement like this is was MILLIONS

Right, Mbeki a terrorist... i'm sure the southafrican regime tought the same in the 80's...

Yeah why not - if terrorists or drug lords buy into legitimate companies in order to launder money then the consumer, knowingly or not is supporting them. If you buy coffee at the local Caribou, whether you know it or not you are supporting the management of a radical islamic bank that has made seriously anti american statements, has claimed (unasked) that they support armed struggle against the US and Israel and other unequivocal statements. That some world leader choses to turn a blind eye to it is really unimportant.

You are such a hypocrite really - you make grandiose claims about how Israel and other countries secretly scheme and cooperate to keep the muslim world oppressed yet cooperation among those same countries that engineered the Durban conference is somehow innocent. You realize that you have zero credibility as a result.

i've read those documents, the only thing one can conclude is that he made payments to fatah-members, none of them any prooven connection to al-aqsa. The European commission has studied those documents and came to the conclusion that the israeli claim is nonsense.

You read Arabic? And where prey tell did the EC determine it was nonsense. You remind me of one of those people who gets hit with a flying piano and tells me it's not the piano, it's the wood that the piano is made from.

takeo · 06-28-2002, 05:18 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...711064,00.html

"The European Parliamentâ€™s block on the transfer of some 18.7 million euro to the Middle East Process budget was lifted on Wednesday. After a forceful address by external relations Commissioner, Chris Patten, both the parliamentâ€™s foreign affairs and budgetary committees unanimously voted to release the money. "

http://www.euobserver.com/index.phtml?aid=6708

"Yeah why not - if terrorists or drug lords buy into legitimate companies in order to launder money then the consumer, knowingly or not is supporting them. If you buy coffee at the local Caribou, whether you know it or not you are supporting the management of a radical islamic bank that has made seriously anti american statements, has claimed (unasked) that they support armed struggle against the US and Israel and other unequivocal statements. That some world leader choses to turn a blind eye to it is really unimportant. "

what exactly is your claim against South Africa?
they can trade with whoever they like, they are an independant country, and making statements is actually not the same as terrorism...
of course SA is not really sympathic to israel, considering the years of Israeli support for the Apartheidsregime, but it doesn't finance terrorism against israel.

"You are such a hypocrite really - you make grandiose claims about how Israel and other countries secretly scheme and cooperate to keep the muslim world oppressed yet cooperation among those same countries that engineered the Durban conference is somehow innocent. You realize that you have zero credibility as a result. "

what's wrong with the Durban conference? states have the right to cooperate and have their own views and policy concerning the Middle east, while other countries support Israel, that's world policy you know. There was nothing secret about the Durban conference.

what are my grandiose claims that israel and other countries secretly scheme to keep the muslim world oppressed?

you are one of those hypocrits that sees terrorism or anti-semitism as everything "directed against he us, israel's or its allies' interests", while us- or israel sponsered use of terror, is considered legitimate.
if palestinians react to israel occupation, than it's per definition terrorism, if the same happens in Kosovo or iraqi kurdistan, than it's not...