Why is Israel apologizing?

[cat]

Why is Israel apologizing after they accidentally kill civilians during a military exercise? I don't hear Hamas apologizing when they target innocent woman and children and blow them up into pieces. Israel should stop worrying about their PR so much because the Arab's and even the EU will put their own negative propoganda spin on it, no matter what the truth is.
I have an idea that will stop most of the suicide bombings and save lives on both sides. Since most martyrs are willing to kill because of the Hamas family support, why not kill the martyrs entire family and destroy their home. I know this sounds terrible, but the Israelis should give the terrorists a taste of their own medicine.
Israel needs to make up it's mind, either give up on the settlement dream, live with a Palestinian state or take back all of the West Bank and Gaza and stop pretending that Arafat wants peace.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by cat
Why is Israel apologizing after they accidentally kill civilians during a military exercise? I don't hear Hamas apologizing when they target innocent woman and children and blow them up into pieces.

Just becasue the Palestinian have little regard for human life, does not excuse Israel from maintaining high moral standards of humanism.
The reason Israel feels obliged to apologize for the accidental death of innocent bystanders is becuase Israelis genuinely feel regret when such an incident occurs.

Originally posted by cat
I have an idea that will stop most of the suicide bombings and save lives on both sides. Since most martyrs are willing to kill because of the Hamas family support, why not kill the martyrs entire family and destroy their home. I know this sounds terrible, but the Israelis should give the terrorists a taste of their own medicine.

When Israel begins killing innocent Palestinians just because their family members were suicide bombers - that's when Israel will become a terrorist organization. I, as an Israeli Zionist, and many people like me - will not stand for such a policy and I will actively pursue the downfall of such a government!

There are rules for waging war against guerilla and terrorism.

Originally posted by cat
Israel needs to make up it's mind, either give up on the settlement dream, live with a Palestinian state or take back all of the West Bank and Gaza and stop pretending that Arafat wants peace.

That's simply not true. Israel DO NOT need to make up its mind. The Palestinians have to do that. and the rising opposition to Arafat and the voices coming from Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia show that there is progress and there is hpoe that things will change in the foreseeable future.
If Israel takes a unilateral action that is not acknowledged by the other side THIS WILL NOT END THE VIOLENCE. It wil only give the Palestinians further pretext to continue their war.
Israel, as hard as it may seem now - must wait for the other side to realise the futility of their actions and cease their terror attack. Of course, in the meantime Israel has the right to defend itself in means such as operation "defensive wall".

[elke]

Sharon,

As far as I am concerned, you hit the nail right on the head! Good going!

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by sharonbn
When Israel begins killing innocent Palestinians just because their family members were suicide bombers - that's when Israel will become a terrorist organization. I, as an Israeli Zionist, and many people like me - will not stand for such a policy and I will actively pursue the downfall of such a government!

Sharon, I'm sure that you have already actively pursued the downfall of the Likud-led government, by voting no doubt, for the Leftist parties. Nothing wrong with voting any way you please in a democracy, but what else do you propose to do?

Anyway, killing the families of the suicide bombers, though correct and moral in many cases, is not on the Israeli government's agenda at the moment, and I suspect it will never be for economic and political reasons.

But, to make a comparison, in the U.S., if the family of a murderer (or anyone else) knew of his/her plans to commit murder and did not take active steps to prevent the crime from taking place, then the family is consider to be a co-conspirator and can be found guilty of the crime equally with the murderer him/herself. If there was a death penalty associated with that type of mass murder, then there is a good chance that the family members could also get that penalty -- right here, in the good old US of A.

Also, one who receives payment for the commission of a murder can be held responsible for the crime itself. If the family of a suicide bomber gets $25,000 from Saddam Hussein and another $15,000 from Saudi Arabia for the suicide bombing, then in such a case, they could very well also be considered guilty of the murder.

So, do not presume automatically that the family is innocent under the law. In many cases, they participated directly in the suicide bombing and should pay a steep price under the laws of a civilized democracy.

As for the families who were totally unaware of the impending massacre at the hands of their children, there is a question what to do with them. IMO, it makes very good sense to penalize them (not execute them) as a deterrent against future bombings and to save the lives of innocent Israelis. The family's inconvenience is outweighed by the benefit of saving lives through deterrence.

[elke]

I know you make a valid point, NewsGuy, but somehow this idea of going after the families makes me extremely uncomfortable. A compromise, such as expulsion they are now talking about, is more palatable than the execution or imprisonment... only because I am fresh out of ideas of what else can be done.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
Sharon, I'm sure that you have already actively pursued the downfall of the Likud-led government, by voting no doubt, for the Leftist parties. Nothing wrong with voting any way you please in a democracy, but what else do you propose to do?

Another legitimate way is demonstrating in the streets and voicing my opinion in the media via letters, pettitions, etc. showing the politians they cannot do whatever they like and get away with it.
The left movement has a record of successfully employing such tactics and actually making a difference in Israel political history (Sabra and Shatila is one such example.)

Originally posted by NewsGuy
But, to make a comparison, in the U.S., if the family of a murderer (or anyone else) knew of his/her plans to commit murder and did not take active steps to prevent the crime from taking place, then the family is consider to be a co-conspirator and can be found guilty of the crime equally with the murderer him/herself. If there was a death penalty associated with that type of mass murder, then there is a good chance that the family members could also get that penalty -- right here, in the good old US of A.

Did any of Timothy McVeigh's family or David Koresh's family suffer as a result of these men's actions?

Originally posted by NewsGuy
So, do not presume automatically that the family is innocent under the law. In many cases, they participated directly in the suicide bombing and should pay a steep price under the laws of a civilized democracy.

Funny, I presumed ANY person is innocent under the law unless proven otherwise. You seem to presume that because that person's brother was a suicide bomber, then that person is guilty. You say that even if that person is not guilty and did not commit any crime - he/she should be punished. how do you think such a person will react? Don't you think this policy might drive otherwise innocent people to the arms of the terrorist groups?

[Vic]

To return to the start of the thread: it's true that a democratic state has to preserve an ethic codex in its army. Problems arise when acts related to this are badly communicated to the public, without taking in account hostile reactions - PR issue all over again.

As for the "killing" of the suicide bomber's family members - this is pure idiocy. They can be put on trial if they are proven to have taken part in the preparations. And, as argued elswhere, the bombers themselves are the least important part of the terror structures. Concentrating on them is probably quite inefficient.

From the practical point of view, (maybe some of the Israeli participators might provide more information):

Mr. and Mrs. X., living somwhere in the PA territory, learn that their son intends to take part (in this way or other, the bombers themselves are not the only guilty party) in an attack on Israelis. Assumed that they don't approve of it, what can they realistically do to prevent it? Communicating it to the Israeli authorities might easily amount to signing their own and their other family members' death warrants, since it would make them "collaborators". I understand that Palestian collaborators cannot rely on Israel for due protection. Lock the son up? Go to the PA police or the local mullah? Write a letter to the American president to send in the Marines?

[elke]

Would it be possible for Israel to provide the kind of protection these people would need? Because it seems that this tack could have the most long-reaching positive effect of any other.

I wonder if one of the problems Israel is facing is the way their Lebanese friends are being treated, with nary a peep out of anyone to protest the incarceration and death sentences of the "collaborators".

One has to wonder if that moral collapse is real, or if it's a product of brutal repression by the Hamas etal.

[cat]

Ok, perhaps killing the family is a bit extreme, then why not banish them and destroy their home. Send a message. Believe me the reason a Palestinian is willing to become a suicide bomber is the comfort that they will be praised as a "martyr" and that his family will be taken care of. If you take this societal acceptance away, then they will stop. It's not difficult to find the family. Hamas flaunts their craft of blowing up innocent civilians and the family is often seen praising their family" martyr". Stop the flow of support money and the improvement of the family life and you stop this particular tactic. Ofcourse this doesn't prevent future violence by other means. That's why they need to figure out how to live side by side in peace, sounds easy , right? well.............

[elke]

This is just a "brainstorm" - crazy idea, but maybe something useful can come out:

Would it be possible to create "safe haven" communities, and protect them the way the Jewish Settlements are protected. Possibly, even give the cooperating Palestinians some other incentives as well: for example, it seems that the settlements still hire Palestinians for certain jobs. Maybe preference for such jobs can be given to the cooperating Palestinians.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by elke
A compromise, such as expulsion they are now talking about, is more palatable than the execution or imprisonment...

Execution would only be resrved for families of suicide bombers who were co-conspirators in the mass murder of innocent Israelis.

I understand that some people will not find this palatable. On the other hand, I also do not find it palatable to see the small bodies of Israeli infants blown to pieces in the streets of Israel's capital. The photos of the bent strollers sitting in a river of Jewish blood is the situation that must be avoided at all costs.

That's why to me the question is how to prevent more innocent deaths, not how we can preserve the welfare of the families of the Palestinian terrorists, while the families of their Israeli victims are destroyed forever.

[Gatorade]

Originally posted by cat
Why is Israel apologizing after they accidentally kill civilians during a military exercise?

Terrorists know the true power for Palestinians come from world opinion. Israel realizes this too, so Israel apologies to show, unlike Palestinians terrorists, Israel does value human life and regrets when innocent lives are lost.

I believe most terrorist leaders realize they cannot destroy Israel with its use of violence. The goal of terrorism is to instill fear into people. The terrorists believe this will destroy Israelis economy and lead to negotiation where the terrorists gain politically.

The terrorist leaders know that when they strike Israel that Israel will react. The hope Israel’s reaction is:

1)Israel citizens leave out of fear of living in a war zone. Israel tourism will die.

2) We already know terrorist leaders don’t have high regard for Palestinian citizens lives and are willing to sacrifice Palestinian lives for the cause of destroying Israel.
Terrorist leaders hope and believe that Israel will start to use less restraint, so the Palestinian cause will look like it has the high moral ground.

Many people judge who is right and wrong based upon who suffers more without looking at what caused the suffering. If Israel didn't appoglize, Europe would see Israel, a strong force, as committing a genocide. Israel would be boycotted from trade around the world.

At this point Israel is suffering from terrorists. However, Israel needs European trade for its economy. At some point if more Israelis lives are lost, Israel won’t worry about apologizing if innocents are killed in its war against terrorism. At some point, even if Europe objects, Israel will use less restraint and will use brutal force because it is necessary for a nation to defend itself against immediate threats, more than worry about its economy.

[Vic]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
Execution would only be resrved for families of suicide bombers who were co-conspirators in the mass murder of innocent Israelis.

Would be difficult to prove in most cases, I imagine. Not every terrorist bothers to make a farewell video with his mom brandishing a rifle. How do you find credible evidence (witnesses?) under the circumstances as they are, for one?

And why go after the (I like the expression) suicide murderers' families with such vengeance? The ones who blow themselves up are at the bottom of the pyramide. The real murderers are much higher in the hierarchy, why let them go unharmed? If I were to decide on extreme measures I'd rather shoot a member of Arafat's cabinet after each attack or maybe bomb the house of someone like Rantisi of Hamas who seems to glow with joy on all TV channels in the last months.

I understand that some people will not find this palatable. On the other hand, I also do not find it palatable to see the small bodies of Israeli infants blown to pieces in the streets of Israel's capital. The photos of the bent strollers sitting in a river of Jewish blood is the situation that must be avoided at all costs.

That's why to me the question is how to prevent more innocent deaths, not how we can preserve the welfare of the families of the Palestinian terrorists, while the families of their Israeli victims are destroyed forever.

À la guerre comme àla guerre, but I doubt the outcome will be anything close to the desired in many respects.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by sharonbn
(Sabra and Shatila is one such example.)

It is an example of Israeli extreme-Leftists settling a political account with the center-right Likud. However, let's remember that the Israeli public later acknowledged the perversity of that Leftist political action by voting for Sharon overwhelmingly in the past election.

Also, we have seen that the ongoing Palestinian terrorism has weakened the effect of Leftist demonstrations, so I highly doubt that the Leftists will be able to manuever much while the Palestinian war of terrorism continues.

Did any of Timothy McVeigh's family or David Koresh's family suffer as a result of these men's actions?

Actually, yes. Timothy McVeigh's family and friends were all interrogated by the Feds and if anyone of them had any knowledge they would have definitely been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. And actually some of his acquaintances were taken into custody by the FBI if my memory serves me correctly. As for David Koresh, well, his family were simply set on fire during the incident.

Funny, I presumed ANY person is innocent under the law unless proven otherwise. You seem to presume that because that person's brother was a suicide bomber, then that person is guilty.

No, I made the distinction between families of suicide bombers who had knowledge (who should be punished very severly) and between those who didn't.

Still, I stand by my opinion that even when not directly involved in the mass murder, the families should be expelled. How would they feel? Bad, I imagine. But not nearly as bad as the families of the dead Israelis. This is not necessarily a punitive measure. Rather, it is a last-resport deterrent to Palestinian terrorism in an effort to save the lives of their future victims.

Again, I am primarily concerned with figuring out a strategy for saving Jewish lives -- not ensuring the standard of living of the families of the Palestinian suicide bombers.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Vic
Would be difficult to prove in most cases, I imagine... How do you find credible evidence (witnesses?) under the circumstances as they are, for one?

That's a separate issue. Proving co-conspiracy has been done successfully here in the U.S. and in other countries for hundreds of years. First comes the strategy, then implementation.

The real murderers are much higher in the hierarchy, why let them go unharmed?

I would not let them go unharmed. Terrorism needs to be fought vigorously on all levels simultaneously.