Request for Info.

[Michael M.]

Can anyone recommend web sites to visit that would have accurate historical information relevant to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and region? I hear so much about settlements and whose land it really is, etc. that I don't know what to believe. For example, did Israeli settlers simply take land and houses from displaced palestinians or did they purchase the land where settlements are being built? Are there records of purchases and things like that? Are there any sites where this kind of information and history can be accurately accessed?

If you can help, Thank you!

[ibrodsky]

Michael,

There are many Internet sites with many conflicting claims. I recommend you visit some book stores -- both new and used. You will get a truer picture by reading many books published over a long period.

One book that has been meticuously researched is Joan Peters' In Time Immemorial.

There is an excellent bibliography re: the Middle East and militant Islam at Daniel Pipes' site:

http://www.danielpipes.org/

There are also many people who visit this site who know the history of the settlements. For example, one rarely mentioned fact is that the Arabs did not even start talking about making peace with Israel until Israel began building settlements on disputed territory. The settlements have actually been the single greatest impetus to peace.

Another fact that is overlooked is that Israel dismantled settlements and gave back most of the captured land to make peace with Egypt.

Finally, Israel's Arab enemies -- and much of the world -- seem to feel that it is perfectly acceptable for the Palestinians to demand a Jew-free West Bank (while there are one million Arabs living in Israel). Not all Jewish settlers insist that their settlements be made part of Israel. I was surprised to hear settlers say they were willing to live in a Palestinian state -- as long as that state recognized and protected their equal rights -- when I visited the West Bank several years ago.

[Michael M.]

Thank you. I will take your recommendations. Also, the idea that Palestine should be a Jewish free state while I know Israel has Palestinians in it has always struck me as being a morally objectionable position to say the least. But this is the view most seem to accept, perhaps without thinking about it. I am not Jewish, but from America (not that the two are mutually exclusive) and living in UK where I run into so much anti-Israel sentiment I can't believe it. However, I don't really have facts to back up my perception of things, which is why I asked the question. Most Americans just have a gut level support for Israel - it's a democracy, it's free, has strong values, etc., etc. - but this is not the case in the UK, at least from what I have seen.

Anyway, thanks for the referrals.

[Konnrad]

"For example, one rarely mentioned fact is that the Arabs did not even start talking about making peace with Israel until Israel began building settlements on disputed territory. The settlements have actually been the single greatest impetus to peace."

That's in the same way the police won't accept your demands until you take a hostage, or a man won't let you have his place in the line without punching.
Those actions may have scared many Palestinians into wanting peace. It's also scared some into hating Israel; and you know where that has led.

Please understand that, if you make violent and objectionable actions seem legitimate, you'll only support higher and higher cycles of violence.



"Also, the idea that Palestine should be a Jewish free state while I know Israel has Palestinians in it has always struck me as being a morally objectionable position to say the least. But this is the view most seem to accept, perhaps without thinking about it."

I don't know anyone who accepts that view. Both have responsibility to treat the other as humans, not as enemies, and no peace will result until both do so.



"I am not Jewish, but from America (not that the two are mutually exclusive) and living in UK where I run into so much anti-Israel sentiment I can't believe it."

Please qualify this. You may know anti-semitic individuals, but if you are trying to say the media supports such a view you must support news that never mentions the plight of the Palestinians and only demonises them. In this conflict, everyone is hurting.


Thomas Taylor

[elke]

Michael, here is a site that I go to when I get overly depressed. It has much good, solid historical data, as well as some very good essays (don't let the "boring" design fool you )

http://www.ariga.com/peacewatch/

[Konnrad]

Originally posted by elke
Michael, here is a site that I go to when I get overly depressed. It has much good, solid historical data, as well as some very good essays (don't let the "boring" design fool you )

http://www.ariga.com/peacewatch/

"In the Israeli-Palestinian struggle both parties have failed to acknowledge one important point; that is, that both parties are victims."

Man, does that make me feel so much better I could cry.

Does anyone dispute this?

[elke]

Originally posted by Konnrad



"In the Israeli-Palestinian struggle both parties have failed to acknowledge one important point; that is, that both parties are victims."

Man, does that make me feel so much better I could cry.

Does anyone dispute this?

I agree, that was a great article. The reason I like this site is that it gives me hope: even if I don't agree with a particular stance, it's always well reasoned out and not "inflammatory". I don't know where Ami gets all these people from, but I wish we could clone them. If we could, the whole conflict would be gone in no time, and we could all proceed with Jorge's ideas with no further impediment.

Don't cry, it'd make me sad Oh, I know, you always cry at weddings, right?

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Konnrad
[B
That's in the same way the police won't accept your demands until you take a hostage, or a man won't let you have his place in the line without punching.
Those actions may have scared many Palestinians into wanting peace. It's also scared some into hating Israel; and you know where that has led.
[/B]

These are false analogies. Actually, no Arab countries recognized Israel's right to exist at the time Israel began to build settlements. Therefore, there was no difference to them between a settlement on the West bank and a suburb of Tel Aviv.

You talk about a man who "won't let you have his place in the line without punching [him]." And who is the bully in this conflict? Israel has offered to make peace with the Arab world for decades. Even after Israel's amazing '67 military victory, Israel turned right around and offered to give back all of the captured land and make peace.

Israel's Arab enemies are the ones who act like bullies. They call Israel "the Zionist entity," perpetrate and support intentional attacks against Jewish civilians, and are constantly talking about wiping Israel off the map. For example, an Iranian leader recently said that Israel's enemies should contemplate nuking Tel Aviv; he made it clear he was willing to sacrifice 10% of his people to achieve the noble aim of finishing the job Hitler started.

Originally posted by Konnrad
[BI don't know anyone who accepts that view. Both have responsibility to treat the other as humans, not as enemies, and no peace will result until both do so.
[/B]

It is a well known fact that the Palestinians demand all Jews leave the territories. In fact, it is accepted among people like you (see above) that the mere presence of Jewish inhabitants in Arab-only regions is a "punch" in the face.

Note that Muslims have designated entire cities off limits to non-Muslims. When Jordan controlled the West Bank, Jews were not allowed to visit their holiest site.

Meanwhile, Israel has six Arabs sitting in its parliament, and now that Jerusalem is in Israeli hands all religious sites are open to Christians and Muslims. Ironically, Israel gave Muslims sovereignty over the Temple Mount, and Jews are still not allowed to go there even though it is in Jerusalem. When Ariel Sharon visited Judaism's holiest site in Israel's capital, it was denounced as a "provocation" against Palestinians.

In a conflict there are victims and there are victimizers. You can't claim to be against terrorism and then claim the terrorists are also "victims." It's time for the Arab bullies to stop trying to "drive the Jews into the sea" as Nasser boasted.

P.S.: the fact that now we have proven we can defend ourselves doesn't make us bullies. It just means that finally we don't have to take what the bullies dish out.

[peacelover]

IBRODSKY:

"It is a well known fact that the Palestinians demand all Jews leave the territories. In fact, it is accepted among people like you (see above) that the mere presence of Jewish inhabitants in Arab-only regions is a "punch" in the face"

Half of all Israelis demand that palestinians leave those territories. I have been in contact with several Israeli Arabs, the much celebrated Arab inhabitants of Israel intended to show Israel is not a racist state, and I was surprised the amount of prejudice they encounter. One thing is for sure, they don't feel welcome there.

"the fact that now we have proven we can defend ourselves doesn't make us bullies. It just means that finally we don't have to take what the bullies dish out."

You've yet to prove you are defending yourselves and not exacting revenge.

"You can't claim to be against terrorism and then claim the terrorists are also "victims." It's time for the Arab bullies to stop trying to "drive the Jews into the sea" as Nasser boasted"

You can call the many Palestinians who aren't terrorists victims.

Arafat has said he will accept Taba, Saudis offered an Arab recognition of Israel, PLO has twice revoked clause to end Israel's existence... yes hamas etc may seek Israel's destruction, but there is a moderate voice that will happily accept a two state solution.

"Meanwhile, Israel has six Arabs sitting in its parliament"

I must confess I didn't know that. I only knew of Ahmad Tibi, but I am glad to know there are more.

But actualy, 6 doesn't represent accurately the percentage of Palestinians in Israel.

"Jerusalem is in Israeli hands all religious sites are open to Christians and Muslims. Ironically, Israel gave Muslims sovereignty over the Temple Mount, and Jews are still not allowed to go there even though it is in Jerusalem. When Ariel Sharon visited Judaism's holiest site in Israel's capital, it was denounced as a "provocation" against Palestinians."

I agree, and would like Jeruslame to be either Israeli controlled, or an international city.

But I do think Sharon was deliberately making trouble.

You complain that they want to wipe Israel off the map, but there is no Palestine on the map. You may have offered, but you have also rejected peace plans.

Furthermore, do you know the symbol that is above the Knesset? A friend who visited said it shows Israel with a much greater size than currently.

Certainly, we all know Mr Sharon wants to extend Israel. This must be condemned alongside any condemnation of Arab attitudes to Israel, which I personally am appalled at. Israel needs to be given the right to exist in security.

"These are false analogies. Actually, no Arab countries recognized Israel's right to exist at the time Israel began to build settlements. Therefore, there was no difference to them between a settlement on the West bank and a suburb of Tel Aviv"

I disagree. I think there is a great difference in terms of Palestinian perception.

As for nuking Tel Aviv, that's just sick.

Although again, I dislike this comparison to Hitler,

And finally, I fully agree that both sides are victims, and I think I ight check out that site

[elke]

Don't get fooled by that quote into "pegging" this site: it was created by a very thoughtful, well-educated, and extremely intelligent Israeli. There are various views published there, so I think that he will publish any well-written, factually accurate, and non-inflammatory article he can find.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by peacelover
Half of all Israelis demand that palestinians leave those territories. I have been in contact with several Israeli Arabs, the much celebrated Arab inhabitants of Israel intended to show Israel is not a racist state, and I was surprised the amount of prejudice they encounter. One thing is for sure, they don't feel welcome there.

Islamists call for killing Jews "wherever you find them." It's no surprise, then, that there is some tension between Israeli Jews and Arabs. But nobody is demanding the Arabs leave. Violence against Arabs is uncommon. Some Arabs (Bedouins and Druze) serve in the Israeli army.

What is your point? Arabs feel unwelcome in Israel? Jews in both Israel and the disputed territories are being massacred for the crime of being Jewish. And nobody on the Palestinian side lifts a finger to stop it. You can cry for those who feel unwelcome... having your home invaded and child murdered is worse.

You've yet to prove you are defending yourselves and not exacting revenge.

How many busloads of Israelis must be blown up before you believe Israel is defending herself? If Israel were simply out for revenge, why wouldn't Israel just fire missiles on Palestinian crowds? Why would a country seeking revenge go in on foot looking for specific individuals? Why would they arrest thousands and then release most of them?

You can call the many Palestinians who aren't terrorists victims.

Arafat has said he will accept Taba, Saudis offered an Arab recognition of Israel, PLO has twice revoked clause to end Israel's existence... yes hamas etc may seek Israel's destruction, but there is a moderate voice that will happily accept a two state solution.

Yes, many Palestinians are also victims of Islamism, dictatorship, corruption, and Arab brutality.

Arafat is a life-long terrorist. He is also a pathological liar. Anyone who has been paying attention for more than just the past six months knows that:

1) what Arafat says to the Western press and what he says to his own people are two different things; and

2) Arafat always says/does just the right thing when he gets into a serious jam. He held a kangaroo court for PFLP members he had been harbouring up until then just to lift the siege on his Ramallah terror headquarters.

The Saudis offered recognition of Israel if Israel gives in on all Arab demands. This is like when Iraq and other Arab nations ran newspaper ads welcoming Jews to return to their homes in those Arab nations -- just as long as they aren't Zionists. Making an offer for PR purposes that you know the other side can't accept is one of the oldest Arab tricks.

We saw in Lebanon what happens when Israel gives in to Arab demands. Israel withdrew 100% from Lebanon; Hezbollah simply redrew the maps and declared that Israel had not withdrawn 100% in order to justify continued attacks.

But I do think Sharon was deliberately making trouble.

You complain that they want to wipe Israel off the map, but there is no Palestine on the map. You may have offered, but you have also rejected peace plans.

Sharon was making trouble by visiting Judaism's holiest site? And what, besides standing on ground that Islamists have declared off-limits to Jews, did he do that was so troublesome?

What is troublesome is that you accept Arab racist/apartheid practices without question.

Palestine is not on the map for two reasons:

1) there never was a Palestine and the claim that Palestinians seek self-determination is nothing but a ruse to keep the war to destroy Israel alive. This was proved when Israel offered the PA a state, giving in on everything except the settling of one million Arabs inside Israel -- which has nothing to do with the demand for a Palestinian state.

Israel has offered peace with the entire Arab world. Only two Arab countries have made "peace" with Israel. But both are dictatorships and it is well known that their people are filled with hatred of Jews. Israel hoped for a warm peace with Egypt, but Egypt's goverment-controlled press and gov't officials continue to be extremely belligerent.

Certainly, we all know Mr Sharon wants to extend Israel. This must be condemned alongside any condemnation of Arab attitudes to Israel, which I personally am appalled at. Israel needs to be given the right to exist in security.

This is total nonsense. You can't show any evidence that Sharon wants to "extend" Israel. Look at a map. Israel has tried to live as a tiny strip of land with indefensible borders. The Arabs have 100 times as much land but still begrudge Israel having any.

You can pretend that it isn't a big problem, but most of the Arab world has been obsessed with destroying Israel for 50+ years. They are willing to breed children just so they can grow up to become suicide/homicide bombers. They have embraced the evil of terrorism and made it the centerpiece of their culture.

Israel is still fighting for the right to exist in security. Palestinians purposely blowing up people in cafes, discos, and buses. Israel joined the Oslo "Peace Process" in good faith. Israel helped arm the Palestinians. Israel pulled out of their cities. Israel prepared its people for peace.

While all of this was going on, Arafat prepared the Palestinian people for Jihad by creating a culture of terrorism and death.

[redcake]

Originally posted by Konnrad
"[i]
Please understand that, if you make violent and objectionable actions seem legitimate, you'll only support higher and higher cycles of violence.


You may know anti-semitic individuals, but if you are trying to say the media supports such a view you must support news that never mentions the plight of the Palestinians and only demonises them. In this conflict, everyone is hurting.

Thomas Taylor

Foolish. Try applying that same logic about legitamizing violence towards Palestinians and you'll see that suicide bombings, and other assorted terror acts against Israel are not excusable under any rational. Palestinians commit these criminal acts not out of dispair but out of HOPE.

You can qualify your own statements about the media demonizing Palestinians if you'd like.... but it doesn't seem to me that the media are forcing children to strap on bombs, or creating the text books that teach genocide, or force them to march in executioners death hoods right? In actuality the media fails to report many details that would paint an even darker picture of the Palestinian people.

Hurt is a relative term. Don't be a pawn.

[Mediocrates]

peacelover posting #9

So basically you avoid answering any questions and/or responding to anything and instead trot out your ill informed raging agitprop instead.

OK thanks, that was useless.

[peacelover]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
peacelover posting #9

So basically you avoid answering any questions and/or responding to anything and instead trot out your ill informed raging agitprop instead.

OK thanks, that was useless.

Axtually, I quoted and responded to a post by ibrodsky.

Your cheap shots are getting quite amusing now mediocrates!! If I'm 'ill-informed', then show me where!

If I'm shown to be wrong, I will change my opinion - this has already happend on another bioard whereby I changed my stance on the Palsetinina 'right of return, which I now dispute

If we're talking about 'useless' posts, maybe yours, which increasingly serve no purpose but to have a pop at me, are not really contributing anything to a discussion.

"suicide bombings, and other assorted terror acts against Israel are not excusable under any rational. Palestinians commit these criminal acts not out of dispair but out of HOPE."

I agree, but I don't think Konnrad tried to justify the terror attacks.

[Mediocrates]

In the way that you can collect hundreds of items with fact like attributes mix them together in a blender and claim voila! Agree with everything I say! Truly it's tedious to comment on every sentence you type so that you can say (cheapshot - out of context - bah!) For example what is this?

'I agree, and would like Jeruslame to be either Israeli controlled, or an international city.

But I do think Sharon was deliberately making trouble.

You complain that they want to wipe Israel off the map, but there is no Palestine on the map. You may have offered, but you have also rejected peace plans.

Furthermore, do you know the symbol that is above the Knesset? A friend who visited said it shows Israel with a much greater size than currently.

Certainly, we all know Mr Sharon wants to extend Israel. This must be condemned alongside any condemnation of Arab attitudes to Israel, which I personally am appalled at. Israel needs to be given the right to exist in security. '

Something that has the appearance of fact but in fact is largely conjecture, opinion, assumption and concludsions unrelated to other statements.

Or this one:

'You've yet to prove you are defending yourselves and not exacting revenge.'

which is not only not true but forms the most twisted kind of apolgist logic that doesn't apply in any sphere of policy or law.

Or this one which is as far as it goes stright out of the PLO media relations handbook:

'Arafat has said he will accept Taba, Saudis offered an Arab recognition of Israel, PLO has twice revoked clause to end Israel's existence... yes hamas etc may seek Israel's destruction, but there is a moderate voice that will happily accept a two state solution. '

For one thing it's not clear who or what you're talking about or about in what context. Second the tactic of holding Arafat out as an innocent pawn of his own people is not only disingenuous but not even consistant with the facts we know. Third Arafat has said many things in English and turned around and said the opposite to his own people in Arabic or had the opposite broadcast through one of his many proxies.

And you do avoid answering questions -you take the tack of shifting to a new set of statements you claim are beyond question.