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Thread: Libertarianism in Israel

  1. #31
    MicroBalrog
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    You want stoned tourists??
    Better tourists on marijuana - whch does not, by the way, induce people to violence and stuff like that - then no tourists.

    More tourists - more money for Israel - more jobs - more guns and missiles for the IDF.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MicroBalrog
    The number of murder, per capita in the United States, has fallen from 10.5 per 100,000 in the early 90's, to 4.2 now - in an era gun laws were liberalized in most states of the Union.

    That's probably a specious argument. For one, gun laws in the US are very uneven. And in the places where violent crime has dropped the most, like New York City, gun laws are the most restrictive in the country. On the other hand cities have switched to a policing intensive model which effectively dumps all available resources into massively expanding their own police departments. Moreso since 911. Where I live the average salary of police officers has doubled and the size of the force has doubled as well since 1999 yet the total population has increased from 245k to 345k. We also have 4 additional overlapping law enforcement agencies for the same area. In North Carolina basically there are 3 kinds of people. Cops, inmates and people who haven't been arrested yet.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MicroBalrog
    Better tourists on marijuana - whch does not, by the way, induce people to violence and stuff like that - then no tourists.

    More tourists - more money for Israel - more jobs - more guns and missiles for the IDF.

    Well we can probably agree that some level of decriminalization is in order. In the US about 2 million people are behind bars for non violent drug felonies under mandatory sentencing guidelines. It represents roughly 70% of the total prison population. In the past 20 years the concept of parole has evaporated and been replaced with minimum incarceration which is usually something around 6/7ths of the given sentence. Today in the US about 1 in 10 people has first or second hand contact with the criminal justice system either through arrest, bail, conviction, incarceration, probation, community service or court mandated intervention programs. That number is expected to climb to one in four in the next 2 decades.

  4. #34
    MicroBalrog
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    The point I'm trying to merely make is this: There is no conclusive proof that restrictive societies are safer.

    And there's absolutely no proof that rifles and longarms are the culprit in US violent crime. They are in fact the tool for less murders in the US then knives, which is easy to check.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    No that's probably true. Not too many people commit crimes with deer guns. At least in the west. In Africa though, AK's are cheaper than whiskey so just about everyone has one.

  6. #36
    sharonbn
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    Quote Originally Posted by MicroBalrog
    Reduced crime and improved economy comes to mind
    How is legalizing casinos reduce crime? and don't tell me "because gambling will be legal". You can legalize theft and get incredible decrease in crime rate.
    What criminal act will be reduced by legal casinos?
    improved economy is not a virtue by itself. on that basis, we can consider legalizing prostitution and perhaps selling of drugs?

    Quote Originally Posted by MicroBalrog
    and it will take them out of the hands of the mobsters.
    How come? Who runs the casinos at Vegas today?
    I know who runs the casino at Melbourne and Sidney in Australia. It is a crime family.

    Quote Originally Posted by MicroBalrog
    It will also free up police resources which currently are spent combating gambling on important stuff like combating violence.
    Another myth. The freed police resources will be allocated to addicted gamblers turned buglers, drug dealers...

    Quote Originally Posted by MicroBalrog
    The same way synagogues are funded elsewhere – as well as churches, mosques, and what-have-you. By donations.
    What's so special about religious services? Why not apply the same rule to schools? hospitals? prison houses? how about infrastructure? you want to pave a new road? get donation...

    Quote Originally Posted by MicroBalrog
    Generally, judges develop inherent biases throughout their work, which are not necessarily present in a random jury. Also, the conviction standard in a jury is hard (you need 12 to convict).
    "random jury" is also less knowledgeable about the law, more open to emotional manipulation by the attorneys and downright more stupid than the average judge. and "random jury" posses inherent biases in the form of stereotypes and prejudice as much as the next guy. regarding "conviction standard in a jury is hard", you seem to forget the power of group pressure.
    Generally speaking - it is better to let professionals do their job.

    Quote Originally Posted by MicroBalrog
    Again, falls in violence rate. Cheap, clean marijuana grown IN Israel that will fund Israeli industry and tourism is far better then expensive marijuana grown in Lebanon that will fund the terrorist organizations that grow it there right now, like Hizbullah and Hamas.
    Once again, the profit gains of legal marijuana will most probably be Channeled to the increased medical expenses.

    Quote Originally Posted by MicroBalrog
    What HARM will it do? Do you see airguns used in random street violence in Vienna? In London? In Tokyo? In Russia?
    Perhaps airguns are not a problem. firearms based on live ammunition are.

    Quote Originally Posted by MicroBalrog
    In actual fact, American society IS safer then Israeli society in almost all aspects of violent crime.
    Where did you get that?
    From what I have heard, there are neighborhoods and places in American cities that you "just don't go there" if you value your life. I cannot think of any neighborhood, or any other single place in Israel, that I would be afraid to go to. not south Tel Aviv, not Lod, not Ramla, not Givat Shmuel. anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by MicroBalrog
    Yes, I know. For example, Ministry of Communications have allowed a new VOIP company to enter the market last week. Still, again, regulations are very heavy.
    and the trend is to reduce them gradually. like I said.

  7. #37
    MicroBalrog
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    http://www.fbi.gov/filelink.html?fil.../00tbl2-10.xls

    According to this here FBI text, there has been 6,686 peole killed with handguns in the United States in the year 2000.

    396 people were killed with rifles, 468 with shotguns.

    1,743 with knives, and 900 people with someone's bare hands. Interestingly, there are 77 million hanguns in the United States, and 146 million longarms.

    Clearly, then, rifles are not a factor.

  8. #38
    MicroBalrog
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    Once again, the profit gains of legal marijuana will most probably be Channeled to the increased medical expenses.
    Why so? Can you tell me of one medical problem caused by marijuana that is somehow worse then tobacco?

    In fact, marijuana is safer to use then tobacco when you do not smoke it.

    regarding "conviction standard in a jury is hard", you seem to forget the power of group pressure.
    It is a fact - statistically proven- that juries are more likely to acquit then the judges presiding over them.

    Where did you get that?
    Police.gov.il

  9. #39
    MicroBalrog
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    What's so special about religious services?
    Can you please tell me, for what conceivable reason should the government subsidise the religious beliefs of certain people but not others? Why not LaVeyan satanism? Seventh Day adventism? Christianity?

    I understand - there's basic humanitarian reasons - why we subsidize hospitals and schools.

    But - and this is a general fact- nowhere in the Western world does a system of money-to-the-religious - exist. There's no reason it should, either.

  10. #40
    MicroBalrog
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    and the trend is to reduce them gradually. like I said.
    It's as slow as to be unnoticeable - and I personally believe it is too slow.

  11. #41
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MicroBalrog
    Why so? Can you tell me of one medical problem caused by marijuana that is somehow worse then tobacco?

    In fact, marijuana is safer to use then tobacco when you do not smoke it.



    It is a fact - statistically proven- that juries are more likely to acquit then the judges presiding over them.



    Police.gov.il

    In the last several years I've never met a pot smoker who could stop or even moderate their intake. It seems to come down to smoke as much as you can get your hands on and often as you can. Now maybe that's not a criminal problem but it's not neutral. There are consequences to unbridled pot smoking. So one could I think make a case for restricted decriminalization. But people who want to get it will easily get whether its legal or not.

    BTW you have zero reliable statistics for the long term use of heavy pot smoking for long periods of time over a broad population. You can never get a reliable sample size or truthful answers.

  12. #42
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    I don's see how many of your suggestions are actually libertarian though. Maybe they're just more oriented toward an American way of doing things and not really libertarian in the sense we mean it.

    Also what do you mean by jury trials? What portion of your arrests actually end up in court? For us it's maybe 5-10%. It's very expensive to go to trial and the outcomes are a crapshoot for everyone. A lot of defendants do not prefer jury trials.

  13. #43
    MicroBalrog
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    Smoking - wihch is unhealthy REGARDLESS of what you smoke - is not really the only way to consume pot, and the other ones are IMHO more safe.

    Mediocrates: They are simply moderately libertarian rather then the stupid OMG CAPITAL-ANARCHISM NOW way preached by guys like Neil Smith

  14. #44
    Gilgamesh
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    Quote Originally Posted by MicroBalrog
    Better tourists on marijuana - whch does not, by the way, induce people to violence and stuff like that - then no tourists.

    More tourists - more money for Israel - more jobs - more guns and missiles for the IDF.
    I wouldn't like my sister, pushing a baby cart, being harrassed by foreign pot heads. Nor would other people as well.

    I would consider, however, free heroin, to already declared addicts, being administared for free, in special goverment liecensed clinics. I am considering brand new "party drugs" with approved and regulated ingredients in standardizes concentration made by large corporation such as TEVA.

    Pot per se, is a dangerous brain rotting drug. Worse then many others, because of its sheap skin in public opinion.

  15. #45
    Roland
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    Gilgamesh, I agree with you. Totally!

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