Neturei Karta leader in Iran subscribes to Holocaust denial

[Womble]

Neturei Karta sect pays visit to Iran

A delegation from the anti-Zionist Neturei Karta sect is currently visiting Teheran to meet with senior officials and express their support for Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and his calls to eliminate Israel.

In a statement to Iran's official IRIB radio, the group called for "the disintegration of the Zionist regime" and defended the Iranian president, saying that it "is a dangerous deviation to pretend that the Iranian president is an anti-Jewish or anti-Semitic personality."

They added that they were "upset about the recent ploys, propaganda and tensions which have been created by the West regarding the statements of the Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad about a world free of Zionism, since this is nothing more than wishing for a better world dominated by peace and calm."

On Sunday, members of the delegation, headed by Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss, met with Iranian Vice-President Ahmad Moussavi, who also chairs the Iranian Committee in Support of the Palestinian Revolution.

At the meeting, according to the Iranian news agency IRNA, Weiss "praised the 'enlightening' statements of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad about the Holocaust and said the establishment of a Zionist government and occupation of Palestine are contrary to the injunctions of Judaism."

The doctrine of Neturei Karta says Jews cannot use human force to establish a Jewish state before the coming of the universally accepted messiah.

The group supports close ties with Arabs, particularly Palestinians, and rejects Zionism.

Ahmadinejad has been widely condemned in the West for asserting that the Holocaust is a myth.

This is not the first time that Neturei Karta has come to the defense of the Iranian regime. On October 28 of last year, the group issued a statement denying that Ahmadinejad was anti-Semitic after he called for the State of Israel to be dismantled.

Neturei Karta's leader, Rabbi Moshe Hirsh, considers himself a Palestinian Jew. The group has frequently participated in pro-Palestinian activities, including a visit to the grave of Palestinian Authority chairman Yasser Arafat in Ramallah in November.

Just when I thought they couldn't possibly sink any lower.

[Muslima]

and said the establishment of a Zionist government and occupation of Palestine are contrary to the injunctions of Judaism."

The doctrine of Neturei Karta says Jews cannot use human force to establish a Jewish state before the coming of the universally accepted messiah.

.

Is this statement true then, or rather i should ask which branch of Judaism believe this?

Actually this raises an interestig issue..........if waiting for the Messiah wasn't necessary, then why wait so long before claiming the land?

[Mediocrates]

Because they are lunatics and they have always been lunatics.

[Womble]

Is this statement true then, or rather i should ask which branch of Judaism believe this?

Only the Neturei Karta. There is no real theological basis for it though. There's even a basis for the exact opposite- the Jews can actually help bring about the Messiah by rebuilding Jewish statehood in the Promised Land.

Actually this raises an interestig issue..........if waiting for the Messiah wasn't necessary, then why wait so long before claiming the land?

That had to do with the Three Oaths- a sort of an unilateral treaty the Jews have taken on themselves when they were forced into exile:

What are these three oaths? One that Israel not “ascend the wall” (meaning not initiate the rebuilding of the Jewish statehood in the Land of Israel): one that the Holy One, Blessed be He, adjured Israel not to rebel against the nations of the world: and one that the Holy One, Blessed be He, adjured the nations of the world not to oppress Israel overmuch.

In short, the meaning is that for as long as the nations of the world do not persecute the Jews too much, the Jews choose to not bring about the Messiah, because when he comes, the Judgement day comes- and when the Judgement day comes, the "nations of the world" are in for some seriously rough times. Now, this was never something universally accepted, and is not considered a law of the same power as actual divine commandments. It is not based on anything from the Torah itself, but rather intended as a good will gesture towards the "nations of the world . The scholars were never in an agreement over the Three Oaths (RAMBAM argued in favor of the Three Oaths while Nachmanides, the Gaon of Vilna and rabbi Nachman of Breslav argued the opposite), but they were considered obligatory by most of the general public.

Then came the time when it became increasingly difficult to claim that the nations of the world still do not oppress the Jews "overmuch". The Holocaust put the Three Oaths to eternal rest (and how else could it be? If killing a full 30% of all Jews in the world while trying to eradicate the Jewish people completely still doesn't count for "oppressing them overmuch"- what does?). Today, the Three Oaths are considered invalidated by the Holocaust, and even in the Orthodox communities they are only studied as a curiosity from the past. The Neturei Karta are the only ones who still believe in them. If they subscribe to Holocaust denial, it explains why.

[Mira]

Only the Neturei Karta. There is no real theological basis for it though. There's even a basis for the exact opposite- the Jews can actually help bring about the Messiah by rebuilding Jewish statehood in the Promised Land.


That had to do with the Three Oaths- a sort of an unilateral treaty the Jews have taken on themselves when they were forced into exile:

What are these three oaths? One that Israel not “ascend the wall” (meaning not initiate the rebuilding of the Jewish statehood in the Land of Israel): one that the Holy One, Blessed be He, adjured Israel not to rebel against the nations of the world: and one that the Holy One, Blessed be He, adjured the nations of the world not to oppress Israel overmuch.

In short, the meaning is that for as long as the nations of the world do not persecute the Jews too much, the Jews choose to not bring about the Messiah, because when he comes, the Judgement day comes- and when the Judgement day comes, the "nations of the world" are in for some seriously rough times. Now, this was never something universally accepted, and is not considered a law of the same power as actual divine commandments. It is not based on anything from the Torah itself, but rather intended as a good will gesture towards the "nations of the world . The scholars were never in an agreement over the Three Oaths (RAMBAM argued in favor of the Three Oaths while Nachmanides, the Gaon of Vilna and rabbi Nachman of Breslav argued the opposite), but they were considered obligatory by most of the general public.

Then came the time when it became increasingly difficult to claim that the nations of the world still do not oppress the Jews "overmuch". The Holocaust put the Three Oaths to eternal rest (and how else could it be? If killing a full 30% of all Jews in the world while trying to eradicate the Jewish people completely still doesn't count for "oppressing them overmuch"- what does?). Today, the Three Oaths are considered invalidated by the Holocaust, and even in the Orthodox communities they are only studied as a curiosity from the past. The Neturei Karta are the only ones who still believe in them.

That's exactly right. Womble, I am so impressed by you.

If they subscribe to Holocaust denial, it explains why.

I never really thought about that (well, I never knew they denied the holocaust) until you just articulated it right now, and yes that would explain some things.

[mbczion]

I also never knew they resorted to Holocaust denial. I thought they just blamed the Zionists for collaborting with the Nazis and "causing" the Holocaust or some revisionist baloney like that.

[KettleWhistle]

Actually this raises an interestig issue..........if waiting for the Messiah wasn't necessary, then why wait so long before claiming the land?

Because Israel is an ethnic homeland, and NOT a religion-based state. So most don't really care what the primitive anceint writings have to say, one way or the other. So why did Jews wait so long? Because most were too stupid to return earlier.

[Muslima]

Only the Neturei Karta. There is no real theological basis for it though. There's even a basis for the exact opposite- the Jews can actually help bring about the Messiah by rebuilding Jewish statehood in the Promised Land.

The Neturei Karta are the only ones who still believe in them. If they subscribe to Holocaust denial, it explains why.

to be fair, the NK don't subscribe to holocaust denial, but it can be said their actions and comments may make people believe they are in cahoot's with those that do.

[Muslima]

Because Israel is an ethnic homeland, and NOT a religion-based state. So most don't really care what the primitive anceint writings have to say, one way or the other. So why did Jews wait so long? Because most were too stupid to return earlier.

I don't agree,

Israel might not be a religion based state, but that is what the common denominator is. Religion. Israel is for the Jews, nor for a certain ethnicity.

[r2sputin]

I don't agree,

Israel might not be a religion based state, but that is what the common denominator is. Religion. Israel is for the Jews, nor for a certain ethnicity.

Jews are a distinct ethnicity. I'm assuming KW is a non-religious Jew, as am I for instance.

[KettleWhistle]

Exactly. Jews are an ethnicity. Like Greeks, Italians, Irish, Russians, etc. We just kept our ancestoral religion and traditions, while those mentioned above converted to Christianity.

[minusthejihad]

Is this statement true then, or rather i should ask which branch of Judaism believe this?

Branch? LOL! Sure, if you consider 25 lunatics a branch. I usually call it a rugby team.

[Mil]

What a bunch of morons. But I hope those idiots realize that by traveling to Iran they are not doing anyone a favor - including to themselves.

[mbczion]

Branch? LOL! Sure, if you consider 25 lunatics a branch. I usually call it a rugby team.

In all fairness there are more than 25 Jews who subscribe to NK's views. We have our fair share of these hooligans here in Israel (mostly in Mea Shearim, Beit Shemesh, Bene Beraq, etc.) Where I used to live, in Beit Shemesh, they would graffiti "Death to the Zionists...." all over the walls.

Most of Satmar also holds the view that Jews should not return to Eretz Yisrael until Moshiach, but they make their views a bit more "palpable" and have ruled a herem (excommunication) on NK for siding with our enemies, condoning violence against fellow Jews, sitting shiva for Arafart (Yamach Shemo and name spelled like that purposely), etc.

You are right though about them being lunatics, no matter what their accurate numbers are....

[Mira]

Most of Satmar also holds the view that Jews should not return to Eretz Yisrael until Moshiach, but they make their views a bit more "palpable" and have ruled a herem (excommunication) on NK for siding with our enemies, condoning violence against fellow Jews, sitting shiva for Arafart (Yamach Shemo and name spelled like that purposely), etc.

Why hasn't the larger community given such a ruling?