Islamic inventors

[Muslima]

my dear, everything I said was in practice in Saudi Arabia. How can you accuse me of prejudice with that??

How many times do i have to tell you that is not a religious problem? The country has only been modernised in the last 50 years. Centuries old traditions can't be shunned overnight, change is coming slowly. There are alot of qualified women sitting at home doing nothing, but there are plans in place to change that, as well as to educate those that are not able to get an education still. There are more women employed today than there were 10 years ago, and 20 years from now, the figure will be far higher than today.

Another example is the Koran’s teaching that the earth is like a carpet. This presented an obstacle to the theory that the earth is a sphere.

Not true. The opposite in fact.
The QUran CONFIRMS that the earth is round.
The Qur’an mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse:
"And we have made the earth egg shaped". [Al-Qur’an 79:30]
The Arabic word Dahaha means egg shaped. It also means an expanse. Dahaha is derived from Duhiya which specifically refers to the egg of an ostrich which is geo-spherical in shape, exactly like the shape of the earth.
The verse you're talking about is this one,

Verse 71:20 "And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out)." [Al-Qur’an 71:19] But the sentence in the above verse is not complete. It continues in the next verse, explaining the previous verse. It says: "That you may go about therein, in spacious roads."

you can read more here
http://www.guidedones.com/metapage/n...erstanding.HTM

Saudi Arabia supports countless madrassas around the globe. And most muslims pay tribute to it. It makes no sense to just discount it as you did. You have to do better than that.

'

It supports "madrassa's" but doesn't tell the countries concerned how to use the funds they give. That would be like intefering in their countries policies. I personally think they should not just hand out funds without making sure how they are spent.

Then put into context and make us understand. How is it that mohamamad said that women were deficient?

This Hadeeth highlights the spiritual and personality differences between men and women, and how this affects them when they are called as witnesses. Their nature is different to a man, they are shy. Hence for the sake of justice, it was necessary to have 2 women , one backing up what the other says. This was to ensure that justice was served properly, in the case of women being witnesses. It does not mean that they are intellectually inferior , but that because of their very nature, the testimony should be fair.

The weakness in religion does not mean they are weaker in faith. It means that when women are menstruating and having the bleeding they do after childbirth, they are exempt from prayers and religious services. Men are always obliged to pray etc. but women are exempt during certain times.

This hadeeth you brought here, is explained in more detail if your'e interested

Are Women Intellectually and Spiritually Inferior?
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503545318

and the below sheds more light on your "mainteners of women"
.
Are Women Inferior to Men?

Some people misinterpret the verse 34 of surat An-Nisaa’, in which Allah Almighty says: [Men are the managers of the affairs of women because Allah has made some to excel the other].
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503543366

If you hang around all the wrong places for information on Islam you will only be fed distortions.

[Muslima]

In the short term, yes. But eventually the muslims who hate you will eventually everwhelm you even with their women repressed.

On the other hand, if muslims learn to free women from the bondage of depency, then there is a good chance that they would learn to look objectively at their religious beliefs. And secularism will deminish their religious hatred for israel.

Saddam hated Israel and he was secular. He had nothing but disdain for practicing Muslims. They say he was an atheist, and only made a show of being Muslim for the sake of not losing credibility of his people.

Your solution is wrong , because you misunderstand the problem Agnost. Are you Jewish by the way?

[Mediocrates]

In the short term, yes. But eventually the muslims who hate you will eventually everwhelm you even with their women repressed.

nah it will implode in fire first.

On the other hand, if muslims learn to free women from the bondage of depency, then there is a good chance that they would learn to look objectively at their religious beliefs. And secularism will deminish their religious hatred for israel.

If we air dropped 10 million M-16's to the women in the arab world there would be no more problems in the middle east inside of 3 weeks.

[Agnosthiest]

Saddam hated Israel and he was secular. He had nothing but disdain for practicing Muslims. They say he was an atheist, and only made a show of being Muslim for the sake of not losing credibility of his people.

Your solution is wrong , because you misunderstand the problem Agnost. Are you Jewish by the way?

As you said, he made a show for not losing credibility. With that said, his attacks on israel looks more like a show than actual hatred.

I am asian with no ties to jews whatsoever. My primary reason for being here was to learn about jews & judaism.

[Agnosthiest]

How many times do i have to tell you that is not a religious problem? The country has only been modernised in the last 50 years. Centuries old traditions can't be shunned overnight, change is coming slowly. There are alot of qualified women sitting at home doing nothing, but there are plans in place to change that, as well as to educate those that are not able to get an education still. There are more women employed today than there were 10 years ago, and 20 years from now, the figure will be far higher than today.

I only told you the facts because you were in denial, remember?

* ill-treatment of women – forced veilings, forced chaperones, unfair inheritance, overlooked marital abuses
* tribal mentality – sunni discrimination against shia
* suppression of human rights – stoning of alleged adulterers
* racial discrimination – arab muslims against Pakistani muslims

and you can add to that the latest news from Afghanistan of how they plan to kill a former muslim who converted to Christianity. Severe hostility to apostates is so widespread in islam. That’s suppression of freedom. Bigotry and intolerance at its worst.


It is a religious problem because the country is run by religion. Change is coming because there are some muslims who acknowledge the problem. Change is coming slowly because there are a lot of muslims like you who are in denial. Who refuse to see the trouble in Islam.

Not true. The opposite in fact.
The QUran CONFIRMS that the earth is round.
The Qur’an mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse:
"And we have made the earth egg shaped". [Al-Qur’an 79:30]
The Arabic word Dahaha means egg shaped. It also means an expanse. Dahaha is derived from Duhiya which specifically refers to the egg of an ostrich which is geo-spherical in shape, exactly like the shape of the earth.
The verse you're talking about is this one,

Verse 71:20 "And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out)." [Al-Qur’an 71:19] But the sentence in the above verse is not complete. It continues in the next verse, explaining the previous verse. It says: "That you may go about therein, in spacious roads."

you can read more here
http://www.guidedones.com/metapage/n...erstanding.HTM

oh my goodness now we are shifting to apologetics.

My dear you are using the translation of that heretic Rashad Khalifa who changed the quran. Here check it out yourself

http://www.quran.org/sura79.txt


on the other hand here are the translations of unbiased muslim scholars:

079.030
YUSUFALI: And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);
PICKTHAL: And after that He spread the earth,
SHAKIR: And the earth, He expanded it after that.

Where is the egg there?


If Rashad correctly translated that verse then why didnt the ummah believed the muslim scientist who argued that the earth was a sphere? no, it was the west who had to drive this fact into their head. 800 years after the quran was written.

And how does the statement "That you may go about therein, in spacious roads" change the idea that the planet earth is as flat as a carpet?

It supports "madrassa's" but doesn't tell the countries concerned how to use the funds they give. That would be like intefering in their countries policies. I personally think they should not just hand out funds without making sure how they are spent.

Europe is trying to replace Saudi trained imams being sent to the madrassas with locally trained humane imams.

This Hadeeth highlights the spiritual and personality differences between men and women, and how this affects them when they are called as witnesses. Their nature is different to a man, they are shy. Hence for the sake of justice, it was necessary to have 2 women , one backing up what the other says. This was to ensure that justice was served properly, in the case of women being witnesses. It does not mean that they are intellectually inferior , but that because of their very nature, the testimony should be fair.

The weakness in religion does not mean they are weaker in faith. It means that when women are menstruating and having the bleeding they do after childbirth, they are exempt from prayers and religious services. Men are always obliged to pray etc. but women are exempt during certain times.

when you talked about ‘context’ I expected you to post verses from Koran and hadiths that DIRECTLY clarifies this hadith. Instead you make a baseless accusation that women are more shy than men. Where in the Koran & hadiths can you find that?
my god, even the link you posted further ridicules women by accusing them of having weaker memory than men. My goodness. This is terrible. So terrible. Islam so distrusts the intellect of women. Thanks to this….

• Hadith Bukhari Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826:
  The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind

The hadith does clarify the Koran doesnt it?



There is trouble with Islam, my dear. take off your religious glasses and look at it objectively with your own eyes.

[water]

so and now they can make bombs
kidnapping is something they didn't make but they like it alot

[Muslima]

I only told you the facts because you were in denial, remember?

* ill-treatment of women – forced veilings, forced chaperones, unfair inheritance, overlooked marital abuses
* tribal mentality – sunni discrimination against shia
* suppression of human rights – stoning of alleged adulterers
* racial discrimination – arab muslims against Pakistani muslims.

I'm not in denial, and i repeat none of these things are Islamic in nature. They are cultural and traditional. You keep repeating this mantra doggedly, and i'll keep denying they're Islamic. Just because i'm not lapping up your wonderful offer of secularism, doesn't mean i'm in denial

Change is coming because there are some muslims who acknowledge the problem.

What change is coming? That secular Iraq voted in Sharia law? women included? Did you know the municipal elections in Saudi Arabia, had secular and religious parties. The religious parties won, hands down. Women didn't vote in the municipal elections, but they will the next time round. A poll conducted to see who they would vote in, brought the same results.
So what change are you talking about? Pray tell!

Change is coming slowly because there are a lot of muslims like you who are in denial. Who refuse to see the trouble in Islam.

Change is coming because people see how wrong the likes of you are, who try to impose secularism and agnostism or whatever ism's you believe in.

and you can add to that the latest news from Afghanistan of how they plan to kill a former muslim who converted to Christianity. Severe hostility to apostates is so widespread in islam. That’s suppression of freedom. Bigotry and intolerance at its worst.

Apostates are so rare that they make headlines Agnostic.

Some sects carry out the apostacy for death, but the majority believe in giving the apostate indefinate time to reflect. You know very well the death sentence is very rare, and besides i've covered this subject earlier or in another thread i think.

My dear you are using the translation of that heretic Rashad Khalifa who changed the quran. Here check it out yourself

Heretic or not, Rashad TRANSLATED only what was there. Here are other translators. Yusuf Ali translated that verse to mean egg shaped.
Where do you get your quotes from? State your sources please.

http://quranicteachings.co.uk/index.htm

http://www.emuslim.com/QuranandScience/Astronomy.asp
Translated by A Yusuf Ali
Al- Quran 79:30
(* The Arabic word dahaha has been translated by A. Yusuf Ali as “vast expanse”, which also is correct. The word dahaha also means an ostrich-egg. Consider the following verses related to the nature of light from the sun and the moon: “It is He who made the sun To be a shining glory And the moon to be a light (Of beauty).”

“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.” *

Al- Quran 79:30

If Rashad correctly translated that verse then why didnt the ummah believed the muslim scientist who argued that the earth was a sphere? no, it was the west who had to drive this fact into their head. 800 years after the quran was written.

REad above. You can only translate what is there. Others came to same opinion. But all this is irrelevant. The Quran wasn't sent with hidden secrets for us to decipher. This is not Islam. The Quran was given as a moral code to live by. There is science and miracles in the Quran but they are not the proof of the Quran's divinity. The Quran does confirm the earth is round. Another thing, Arabic is a very complicated language, it's the most difficult language to learn, therefore you can only really understand the Quran in Arabic, it's nuances and beauty can only be appreciated fully if you understand Arabic.
Prophecies were given by The Prophet.

Europe is trying to replace Saudi trained imams being sent to the madrassas with locally trained humane imams.

You show your CRASS IGNORANCE AND PREJUDICE HERE in spectacular style!
The imam's that come to Europe are not coming from Saudi Arabia. They are coming from developing countries. In fact the European Muslim council has complained about this problem. They want home grown imam's, but their requests and recommendations were always ignored by immigration, red tape etc. etc.

It is long overdue, but don't blame Saudi Arabia here.

when you talked about ‘context’ I expected you to post verses from Koran and hadiths that DIRECTLY clarifies this hadith. Instead you make a baseless accusation that women are more shy than men. Where in the Koran & hadiths can you find that?

One of the fatwa's i gave you, explained that hadeeth clearly. The other one explained that verse about men being the mainteners of women. Clearly you misunderstand this to mean that women are subservient to men and have no life of their own. This is not correct,but your agnostic view on life can't swallow that.

my god, even the link you posted further ridicules women by accusing them of having weaker memory than men. My goodness. This is terrible. So terrible. Islam so distrusts the intellect of women. Thanks to this….

• Hadith Bukhari Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826:
  The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind

The hadith does clarify the Koran doesnt it?

How come someone who is agnostic says "my god?"

You are clutching at straws, Agnostic. If you can't understand what is there, then that is your problem. The explanation is clear as crystal and i don't intend to repeat it and repeat it to someone who has an agenda. You can mock and taunt, and it doens't make an iota of difference. That's because you are not seeing what is there, but what you want to see.

If you think that looking out for woman's welfare is a sign of her weakness then i really feel sorry for you. Doesn't your brother , or husband or menfolk, look out for the women in your family?

There is trouble with Islam, my dear. take off your religious glasses and look at it objectively with your own eyes

There is no trouble with Islam, my dear. Take of your agnostic glasses and look at it objectively with your own eyes

[Agnosthiest]

How come someone who is agnostic says "my god?"

my dear, I called myself “agnosthiest”. That means Im agnostic and theist at the same time. I believe that there is a higher power out there, but I don’t think we really know anything about him/her. I don’t believe in religion. They are all just man-made. Baseless assertions by self proclaimed prophets who made up personal versions of god. Religion is more harm than good. Especially some religions out there.

What change is coming? That secular Iraq voted in Sharia law? women included? Did you know the municipal elections in Saudi Arabia, had secular and religious parties. The religious parties won, hands down. Women didn't vote in the municipal elections, but they will the next time round. A poll conducted to see who they would vote in, brought the same results.
So what change are you talking about? Pray tell!

you are the one who mentioned ‘change’ in Saudi Arabia, so you tell me.

Apostates are so rare that they make headlines Agnostic.

Some sects carry out the apostacy for death, but the majority believe in giving the apostate indefinate time to reflect. You know very well the death sentence is very rare, and besides i've covered this subject earlier or in another thread i think.

Apostates are so rare because the penalty is death, if not disownment by everyone the person loves. Like would you do it if you discover that Islam is bogus?

I know very well that death sentence is rare because of what I said and because the media don’t have enough access in islamist countries. In the west however it is common for apostates to receive persecution from muslim communities.

Heretic or not, Rashad TRANSLATED only what was there. Here are other translators. Yusuf Ali translated that verse to mean egg shaped.
Where do you get your quotes from? State your sources please.

http://quranicteachings.co.uk/index.htm

http://www.emuslim.com/QuranandScience/Astronomy.asp
Translated by A Yusuf Ali
Al- Quran 79:30
(* The Arabic word dahaha has been translated by A. Yusuf Ali as “vast expanse”, which also is correct. The word dahaha also means an ostrich-egg. Consider the following verses related to the nature of light from the sun and the moon: “It is He who made the sun To be a shining glory And the moon to be a light (Of beauty).”

“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.” *

Al- Quran 79:30

well whatever it is, it wasn’t how the ancient arabs saw that verse. So the idea that the world is round became popular somewhere else instead.

Prophecies were given by The Prophet.

what prophecies?

You show your CRASS IGNORANCE AND PREJUDICE HERE in spectacular style!
The imam's that come to Europe are not coming from Saudi Arabia. They are coming from developing countries. In fact the European Muslim council has complained about this problem. They want home grown imam's, but their requests and recommendations were always ignored by immigration, red tape etc. etc.

It is long overdue, but don't blame Saudi Arabia here.

Do you hate me so much that you accuse me of prejudice where no prejudice exists? How the hell did that statement show prejudice? I only said what I thought I heard some time ago. If it was wrong, then correct me courteously. My goodness, I feel like you wanted to gut me.

One of the fatwa's i gave you, explained that hadeeth clearly. The other one explained that verse about men being the mainteners of women. Clearly you misunderstand this to mean that women are subservient to men and have no life of their own. This is not correct,but your agnostic view on life can't swallow that.

how on earth can I swallow that, when instead of showing context that fatwa resorted on stupid excuses like “women are more shy”, “they have poorer memories”. That is so stupid and so contrary to reality. In democratic cultures men & women are equal in shyness or daringness. They have equal memories.

Show me why Mohammad said that women are deficient in intelligence and religion. No excuses. No apologetics. Show me a context - Verses. Or show me a scientific study that confirms what he said.

You are clutching at straws, Agnostic. If you can't understand what is there, then that is your problem. The explanation is clear as crystal and i don't intend to repeat it and repeat it to someone who has an agenda. You can mock and taunt, and it doens't make an iota of difference. That's because you are not seeing what is there, but what you want to see.

Oh I understand that PERFECTLY. The reason why the quran said that the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind. CRYSTAL CLEAR. What more is there to see? Its your hadith, my dear.

If you think that looking out for woman's welfare is a sign of her weakness then i really feel sorry for you. Doesn't your brother , or husband or menfolk, look out for the women in your family?

I feel sorry for you for entirely missing my point. That is not my view. In my family we equally look out for each other. No gender is superior over the other.

Both genders are the maintainers of each other.
Both genders are dependent on each other.

Both have jobs.
Both do house chores.
Both care for the children.

Nobody was required to be the bread winner. Rather, each try to do the best for the family, to have a better life. Though the entire family can survive on my salary, my wife chose to take a job so we can all enjoy a higher standard of living.

I have never beaten her though there were times when she wouldn’t listen to me. And half the time she was eventually right anyway.

There is no trouble with Islam, my dear. Take of your agnostic glasses and look at it objectively with your own eyes

and how on earth do agnostic glasses affect the eyesight? agnostic glasses dont have a clutter of beliefs that obscure the sense. wearing it or not makes no difference. tough luck, babe. its you that cant see properly with those glasses of yours.

[Muslima]

Agnost, (you're a man, somehow i thought you were female)

if you keep asking me religious questions here it will go off topic, actually it's already off topic. The title is "Islamic investors" not "Learn about Islam".

By the way you came here to learn about Judaism and instead you're firing questions about Islam.

[Agnosthiest]

yeah, my agenda here is to learn about jews & judaism.

but it was fun discussing islam and the muslim world too.