faithfreedom.com (recommended by muslima)

[ygalg1]

What really happened with the 'Jews of Medina'?

Islam and the Jews
1.) Muslims do not hate Jews (the general population) or other non-Muslims. They are as much human as we are. We are ordered by Allah to show mercy to all humanity. We thank Allah we were born Muslims but we are never sure whether we shall die as Muslims or not. We love Muslims and love non-Muslims to become Muslims. We are told in the Quran there is no compulsion in religion. Whosoever makes a choice makes it to his/her own good. It is between Allah and him/her. Irrespective if someone is a Muslim or a non-Muslim we are ordered strictly to follow the guide lines of justice and equality when dealing with both without discrimination. However Muslims as being Muslims are brothers to each other.

2.) We condemn Zionists and Zionism (Elites controlling Israel) and we condemn Israel persecuting Palestinians. We condemn the racist agenda of Israel. Our condemnation for Zionism is shared by the countries throughout the world with the exception of USA and a few others. This was proven when Israel was declared a racist state by the world community in South Africa.

3.) The Quran calls the Jews and Christians ‘people of the book’.

4.) There are a large number of people 'among' the Jews who have an evil agenda.

5.) Christians believe the Jews that allegedly killed Christ were evil. Jesus was allegedly crucified by the general consent and support of the Jews at the time. Similarly Muslims think that in general the influential people of the Jews of Medina at the time of the Prophet had evil plans...

[andak01]

As to one, that's true. And nobody who feels that the fellow practicioners of his or her own religion are brothers and sisters should resent that we feel that way too. Likewise, when somebody from among us commits great sins, it hurts us all.

Number two I don't agree with. There was no Zionism during the Prophet's time and therefore it's up to us to make our own decision. In as much as some Zionists extremists aim squarely to destroy Islam, we would be against those people. I would hope that Zionism is more than simply a movement about race or land. If so, it is only slated to suceed as long as there are armies to force its existance.

Number three, yes. So what?

Number four. Also yes. It fails to mention that there are a number of Muslims with evil agenda, a number of Christians with evil agenda, etc. We shouldn't hate only the Jews when they have an evil agenda, but evil itself. On the other hand, Jews, like Abraham (SAW) or those who keep the covenant are our heroes. Whole books of the Quran are devoted to them and we keep them in our prayers.

Number five doesn't even deserve comment.

[ygalg1]

the site faithfredom.com suggested by muslima to be refuting...
---------------------------------

Muslims do not hate Jews

Ishaq:245 “Do you love Jews and their religion, you liver-hearted , and not Muhammad? Their religion will never march with ours…. Jews make false professions about Islam. So Allah sent down: ‘Satan wishes to lead them astray.”

Ishaq:262 “Some Muslims remained friends with the Jews, so Allah sent down a Qur’an forbidding them to take Jews as friends. From their mouths hatred has already shown itself and what they conceal is worse.”

perhaps not authentic?

jews are no race, but a nation.

Zionism is about returning home.

destroy islam... I wonder why those extremists don't plot to destroy other religions?

as there are armies who want to do the opposite, there are armies to assure it want went that way.

why are you excluded from the label of "the people of the book"?

evil plans?...does not deserve comment, cause it is ridiculous and you know it well

[Agnosthiest]

Theres a large number of people among muslims with an evil agenda too.

Who said that christians believe that jews killed jesus? its wrong to generalize. most christians, especially those living in south east asia and south america hardly even know about jews. besides, jesus also said to "forgive them (those who crucified him) for they know not what they do"

[andak01]

perhaps not authentic?

Ibn Ishaq (I assume) was a biographer, not Muhammad, not God. If it is authentic, then it is one man's take (and that taken out of context).

evil plans?...does not deserve comment, cause it is ridiculous and you know it well

Reread my post. I commented on evil plans above. As for our take on Christian hatred of the Jews based on their belief that Jews killed Jesus, since we don't even believe he was crucified, it's of little significance to our religion and our beliefs what someone else thinks about a belief we don't share. There is therefore no "similarity". That's what doesn't deserve comment.

[ygalg1]

Ibn Ishaq (I assume) was a biographer, not Muhammad, not God. If it is authentic, then it is one man's take (and that taken out of context).

sounds there is divisions of opinions on hadith among Muslims...
someone showed me same quotes of other hadith and they are not much different from what I posted...

Reread my post. I commented on evil plans above. As for our take on Christian hatred of the Jews based on their belief that Jews killed Jesus, since we don't even believe he was crucified, it's of little significance to our religion and our beliefs what someone else thinks about a belief we don't share. There is therefore no "similarity". That's what doesn't deserve comment.

I take correction andak01. it seems the site itself cannot address issues as should. muslima took them as valid...

[Labyu]

Theres a large number of people among muslims with an evil agenda too.

Who said that christians believe that jews killed jesus? its wrong to generalize. most christians, especially those living in south east asia and south america hardly even know about jews. besides, jesus also said to "forgive them (those who crucified him) for they know not what they do"

Gee I thought the only people nailing him to anything were Romans?When he said that I don't think there were Jews with Hammer and Nails ready to do their worst anywhere in the vecinity.

So 70 old Jewish men are forced into a choice to free either a popular rebel leader with a violent following or a pacifist religious leader who's teaching shows them to be hypocrites and undermines their authority by offering an alternative to the "entrance fee" HHD version of Judaism being offered at the time?

That makes all of the Jews in the world responsible for the crucifixion?

There were half a dozen sects of Judaism who received the same or worse treatment from these same guys and guess what? they were Jews too.How are their descendents responsible for this as well?


Christianity and Islam are based on REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY and the mere existence of Jews is a threat to their beliefs and that is why they will always seek to eliminate us.The nasty little fact that their stories are based on our ancestors drives them crazy and then they try to figure out how to get rid of the evidence rather than address the fact that their theology is at it's core based on Jews and their G_d and has squat to do with them outside their fabrications to insinuate themselves into the biblical epic after the fact.

[Harlequin]

Labyu,

Christianity and Islam are based on REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY and the mere existence of Jews is a threat to their beliefs and that is why they will always seek to eliminate us.The nasty little fact that their stories are based on our ancestors drives them crazy and then they try to figure out how to get rid of the evidence rather than address the fact that their theology is at it's core based on Jews and their G_d and has squat to do with them outside their fabrications to insinuate themselves into the biblical epic after the fact.

As far as I can tell, in the twentieth century there has been a reappraisal among Christian and other biblical scholars and theologians, resulting in much more appreciation of the Jewishness of Jesus, John (the evangelist) and Paul, and the continuity with teachings and strands of Judaism of their time. 2000 year late - yep.

You're right to say that Christians wrestle with their relationship to the chosen people. I do, too. But so far it doesn't drive me crazy, it leaves me with reverence and gratitude towards Judaism.

And I seem to remember a few passages from the prophets (Isaiah springs to mind) which leave behind the exclusivity of Judaism and open the door for gentiles as well.

To finish:

Romans 11:

All Israel Will Be Saved
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

[Labyu]

Labyu,



As far as I can tell, in the twentieth century there has been a reappraisal among Christian and other biblical scholars and theologians, resulting in much more appreciation of the Jewishness of Jesus, John (the evangelist) and Paul, and the continuity with teachings and strands of Judaism of their time. 2000 year late - yep.

You're right to say that Christians wrestle with their relationship to the chosen people. I do, too. But so far it doesn't drive me crazy, it leaves me with reverence and gratitude towards Judaism.

And I seem to remember a few passages from the prophets (Isaiah springs to mind) which leave behind the exclusivity of Judaism and open the door for gentiles as well.

To finish:

Romans 11:

All Israel Will Be Saved
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

There are enough "brick walls" erected by men in the modern versions of both religions to keep the door closed forever but the simple fact is that there is no Christianity without Jews and there is no globally civilizing force on earth without Christianity.

I cannot believe for one moment that it was not within Hashem's will for the Tanakh(nestled inside the first half of the Christian Bible) to be the most widely read and published book on this planet.

The ethics,sense of social justice and "civilizing" of most of this world came about through the exposure to Jewish Law (albeit 2nd hand) through the iron fist of Christianity.

This cannot be an accident and the inroads towards an understanding of actual Jewish biblical principals by western Christians must have been part of this plan as well but this is merely my assumption.

When I speak about the ignorance and savagery induced by Replacement Theology I am not including those who have only recently discovered the truth that was hidden in Tanakh right under their noses.I am talking about millenia of persecution,ignorance and an ever present sense of resentment that has been directed towards Jews by member of the world's dominant though younger faiths.

I have heard the newer Christian theology that promises to unite Jew and Gentile as a perfected being and it is encouraging especially when I see so many Gentiles adopting Halacah and abandoning their ancient pagan traditions in favor of the Jewish traditions of their own primary prophet Jesus observed.

I also believe in the Chassidic version of reincarnation so if I ever meet Moshiach I'll ask him if he had been here before(some time between David and that future moment)

There are mysterious things that all point towards a conclusion of Hashem's choosing all around us,we just lack the point of reference to perceive it fully.


Please accept this as my apology if I have offended any of our Christian friends in any way

[Muslima]

sounds there is divisions of opinions on hadith among Muslims...
someone showed me same quotes of other hadith and they are not much different from what I posted...

I take correction andak01. it seems the site itself cannot address issues as should. muslima took them as valid...

I just noticed this thread,

we should have brought that "islamic inventions" debate into here, not that i want to spend much time on Ali Sina

Ygalg, i meant that faithfreedom.com rebut's Ali Sina's lies accurately. I havn't checked the rest of the website yet, so i can't comment on it's accuracy. Sorry about that. From which page did you get the quotes you posted? i can't see them anywhere

By the way i want to ask you, on the page that is entitled "Zionism exposed" is it true what they say about Ariel Sharon in the second paragraph? did he really say that?
http://www.faithfreedom.com/zionism_exposed.html

[Muslima]

Christianity and Islam are based on REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY and the mere existence of Jews is a threat to their beliefs and that is why they will always seek to eliminate us..

Can you explain how Islam is threatened by Jews. If Jews were a threat, we had plenty of opportunity to "eliminate" them, on the contrary for centuries Jews sought sanctuary from Christians on Muslim lands. Not only that, most middle and upper class Jews converted to Islam. Arab history details these in detail if you bother to check your facts.

When Islam conquered Israel, the Jews were told they could return from their exile, despite the objections of the Christian priesthood of Jerusalem. Why would they invite them back if they wanted them eliminated?

The golden age of Jewry came about under Islamic rule. Jews never had the same glory anywhere else since. How does this tally with your replacement history nonsense?

The Roadmap to the Jewish Golden Age of Spain
http://www.thirteen.org/edonline/tea...e/lessons/lp3/

Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki...lture_in_Spain

The nasty little fact that their stories are based on our ancestors drives them crazy and then they try to figure out how to get rid of the evidence rather than address the fact that their theology is at it's core based on Jews and their G_d and has squat to do with them outside their fabrications to insinuate themselves into the biblical epic after the fact.

I can't speak for Christianity, which has persecuted Jews over the centuries, for the crucifixion myth, but you're going to have to explain how Islam wanted to "get rid of the evidence" when the Quran itself and The Prophet, told us that if we reject The Prophets or the Books, then we are not Muslims.

copied and pasted in Red

The Quran confirms that God made a covenant with the Jews. He chose them for a purpose

The Qur’an speaks extensively about the Children of Israel (Bani Isra’il) and recognizes that the Jews (Al-Yahud) are, according to lineage, descendants of Prophet Abraham through his son Isaac and grandson Jacob, peace and blessings be upon them all. They were chosen by Allah for a mission:

(Ad-Dukhan: 32)
"And We chose them, purposely, above (all) creatures." Allah raised among them many Prophets and bestowed upon them what He had not bestowed upon many others:

(Al-Ma'idah: 20)
"And (remember) when Musa said unto his people: O my people ! Remember Allah's favor unto you, how He placed among you Prophets, and He made you Kings, and gave you that (which) He gave not to any (other) of (His) creatures." .[/QUOTE]

That God exalted them over other nations of the earth and granted them many favors:

(Al-Baqarah:47)
"O Children of Israel! Remember My favor wherewith I favored you and how I preferred you to (all) creatures."

That God would return the Jews to Israel after scattering them amongst the nations.


[Qur'an, "Night Journey," chapter 17:100-104]

"Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."

"We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning."

Your attempts to rewrite history and lie about Islam's intentions towards the Jews only make you look like a fool. The facts are out there for anyone to check. By the way, why do you never back up what you say with sources? Oh let me guess, you don't have any sources , am i right? They are the ramblings of a deluded mind!

I look forward to your CONCISE, SHORT AND TO THE POINT reply, as opposed to the long rambling fairy stories that you normally spew

[ygalg1]

From which page did you get the quotes you posted? i can't see them anywhere

truth_about_jews scroll down until you reach Islam and the Jews
FF.com analysis its too biased!
apology in advance of been rude, but you should take classes from andak01.

[ygalg1]

By the way i want to ask you, on the page that is entitled "Zionism exposed" is it true what they say about Ariel Sharon in the second paragraph? did he really say that?
http://www.faithfreedom.com/zionism_exposed.html

just by looking at the titled

zionism_exposed

you start giggling.
__________________________________________________ ___

Ouze Merham
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ouze Merham is a fictitious Israeli general who supposedly interviewed future Prime Minister of Israel Ariel Sharon in 1956. In the interview Sharon allegedly said:

I vow that I’ll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian women and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian child’s existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian woman is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do.

It first appeared on Muslim websites in mid-2001 during the al-Aqsa Intifada. The quote is seen as obviously false for a number of reasons:

The term "Palestinian" was rarely used by Israelis to refer to Palestinian Arabs in 1956.
It is unclear why an Israeli general would interview Sharon, and then publish the interview.
There is no record of any Israeli general named "Ouze Merham" existing, nor any record of Sharon giving such an interview in 1956.
The quote exists in no verifiable publication.
There are a number of false quotes attributed to Sharon which are circulating on the internet.[1]
The hoax quotation is frequently used as anti-Israel propaganda. Student columnist Mariam Sobh used the quote in her December 11, 2003 Daily Illini column, but later apologized.


Notes
^ The false quotes include

Don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it,

falsely claimed to have been stated by Sharon before Israeli parliament in October 2001 and reported on Kol Yisrael radio; and also a lengthy quote in which Sharon allegedly refers to himself as a "monster or a murderer" and a "Judeo-Nazi" and states "the dirty work of Zionism is not finished". The latter actually comes from an interview with an unnamed Israeli settler referred to as "Z" (or, in some translations, "C") in the collection of articles In the Land of Israel by Israeli author Amos Oz. The articles in the book were based on Oz's interviews in October and November 1982, and published in Davar in November and December 1982 and January 1983. The false attribution to Sharon gained credence when Rocky Mountain News editor Holger Jensen published it in an April 2002 column. Jensen recanted four days later, admitting he had “made a grievous error in not verifying the authenticity of 20-year-old quotes attributed to Ariel Sharon”, and resigned shortly thereafter. Oz has confirmed that he has never interviewed Sharon. In an appendix to the 1983 English translation, Oz wrote "Many people. . . expressed a suspicion that I invented Z. and that such a man is 'not possible'. On the other hand, there were also people who went to the trouble of writing to express their total identification with Z.'s words. The man still refuses to be 'uncovered' and I am obliged to respect the promise I made to him to protect his privacy".

[Uriel]

i believe what people nowadays are failing to understand is the concept of "time". U see, i'm Jewish and Israeli, and love my country and religion above all, and do not underestimate other nations and religions. The problem is, that INDEED, Islam, when it was created, for 500 years untill the Islamic Civilization collapsed (by that i do not mean destroyed, but was minimized and didn't get to that hight again, just like what happened to the greeks, who were a great civilization, and now u rarely hear about a famous greek or a science man or things like that), back then, Islam showed more tolerance towards jews than christianity ever had. At it's very basis, Islam si Judaism's greatest Friend. Todays problem is not with Islam itself, but with the alarmingly large population of arabs who started hating jews for POLITICAL reasons and transplanted it into religous ones to get more followers. It's not about Islam, it's about Islam's dark age, where Islams greatest enemy is a large population of muslims who practicaly have CORRUPTED the quran. In 800 an 900 ad jews and muslims developed great cities together, fought together against the opressors(christians mostly). I should underline the fact that it was of course even Islams golden age, not only Judaisms, because the truth is that the Jews tought the Arabs a lot, and that created a huge friendship, probably never before have 2 nations with 2 different religions have been such good friends like the arabs and the jews.

Too bad that's part of the past, and nowadays Islam is corrupred by some political square-headed arabs who want to destroy Israel, and create followers (terrorist mostly) by LIEING to them and "injecting" fake Islam ideology into their minds.

As for Zionism and things like that, Zionism is not a bad thing, Zionism recreated Israel, true, there are some jews who call themselves Zionist and are right winged, but at least they have little power, their main weapon is their mouth that no one listens to, and they don't wrap themselves in bombs and blow up buses in Damascus or Cairo.

[Muslima]

just by looking at the titled you start giggling.
__________________________________________________ ___

thanks ygalg, seems like the general was fictitious but someone probably said that.

Did Ariel Sharon himself ever comment on this?