Persecution of Christians by Jews?

[minusthejihad]

This thread is based on a Private Message discussion between me and SSRT and we decided to take it public as it is a good topic:

This is SSRT resposnding to my jibe in another thread:

Yeah right! You're about as Jewish as the pope himself. Blood on our hands? You wish.

As Jewish as the pope huh?

Believe me, I have just as much of a right to feel angry at those Europeans as you do.

My grandmothers entire family was killed in the Sho'a, so hold your tongue.

The fact that I don't hold the sons responsible for the murders of their fathers does not mean I am not a Jew.

Don't confuse Romans with Jews nor a subjugated Jewish Authority that took its orders from the Romans with Jews in general. And what the hell is a Christian Jew? Obviously, you must have picked that up in Messianic Jew or Jew for Jesus Sunday School. So what, you're lost already. What is else is new?

In the time of Jesus, Christianity was just a sect of Judaism which slowly began to separate itself.

By using the term "Christian Jews" I am referring to the time before they began to separate from the Jews.[/QUOTE]

[Mira]

What do you guys want to talk about exactly?

[Labyu]

Pope John Paul's mother was Jewish(Emily Katz)

Christianity ceased being a form of Judaism when anti-semites like Marcion and Origen espoused antisemitic doctrine and forced all of the the Ebionite Jews(Jewish-Christians) who fled Judea and Samaria to become Mithraic Proto-Catholics or risk censure or even death.

The core issue of Christian antisemitism in Gentile Christian doctrine is that it required the fabrication of an anti-semitic Replacment Theology and a negative spin on Jews in general to make their censure and diminished status a moot point.

The Pauline epistles which were authored after the time of Origen and not in the 1st century CE are the basis of Christianity and besides being anti-semitic they are even anti-ebionite or anti-apostolic!!!

All 1st century "Christians" had to convert to Judaism

All 1st century "Christians" considered themselves Jewish

All 1st century "Christians" were supposed to adhere to halacah

When these pratices ended so did the connection between Judaism and Christianity.To call one's self a Jewish-Christian today is an anathema not only to thier Jewish heritage but to the foundation principals of their own ideological progenitors(Jesus and the apostles).


There, I wieghed in on a private argument on an internet discussion forum and now my journey to the dark side is complete

[minusthejihad]

more from before...

The second a Jew follows Christ, he/she is not a Jew. This is very simple.

Secondly, Jews don't have blood on their hands. Nice try though.

THat is definitely the case nowadays, since it is clear that Jesus was not the messiah. However at that time (at least for a few years) you could be a Jew belonging to the Christian sect os Judaism.

As for Jews not having blood on their hands - I agree!

You cannot possibly be denying that Jews persecuted CHristians in the early years of Christianity, as this is historical fact.

But, Jews should not be held responsible for any atrocities commited by our ancestors thousands of years ago, just as we should not hold the next generation of Euros responsible for what their parents did.

[minusthejihad]

and more...

Jews did not persecute Christians. Romans did. When you talk about Jews persecuting Christians I don't understand what you mean.

The first two sections of this article deal with Jewish persecution of Christians.

I agree that those sects have no right claiming to be or to represent the Jews. There is no doubt that these sects are Christian and abandoned their Judaism the second they accepted Jesus as their messiah.

I do NOT however, think that people deserve to be killed, beaten, or anything of the sort, because of the religion they follow. Persecution based on religious bias has set mankind back far enough as it is, as a Jew you should know that.

Lastly, everything the Jews did "as a people" meaning not some random Jews acting alone was righteous and for a reason. Once I'm certainly not going to play historical revisionism with now. Please don't ever compare the Jews with any other groups. You will fail miserably. There is no comparison. We are the chosen people for a reason. We chose ourselves to be better than others, and we are.

I'm not going to try argue with you on this, since there is no "proof" for either side of this argument.

It is quite possible that the Jews are a chosen people. I used to laugh such a belief off, thinking it was nothing more than nonsensical superstition, but several things have slowly lead me to believe that there may be some truth behind it.

[minusthejihad]

last one...

Jews did not persecute Christians. Romans did. When you talk about Jews persecuting Christians I don't understand what you mean.

The first two sections of this article deal with Jewish persecution of Christians.

I agree that those sects have no right claiming to be or to represent the Jews. There is no doubt that these sects are Christian and abandoned their Judaism the second they accepted Jesus as their messiah.

I do NOT however, think that people deserve to be killed, beaten, or anything of the sort, because of the religion they follow. Persecution based on religious bias has set mankind back far enough as it is, as a Jew you should know that.

Lastly, everything the Jews did "as a people" meaning not some random Jews acting alone was righteous and for a reason. Once I'm certainly not going to play historical revisionism with now. Please don't ever compare the Jews with any other groups. You will fail miserably. There is no comparison. We are the chosen people for a reason. We chose ourselves to be better than others, and we are.

I'm not going to try argue with you on this, since there is no "proof" for either side of this argument.

It is quite possible that the Jews are a chosen people. I used to laugh such a belief off, thinking it was nothing more than nonsensical superstition, but several things have slowly lead me to believe that there may be some truth behind it.

This is actually a good subject that we should let the group participate in if you don't mind, after all this is a forum and I certainly want to but don't have enough time to go through every point in the disputed talk portion of the article you used as proof. You did notice that that entire section's bias is disputed? Besides, I don't believe anything out of the New Testament and certainly question most of the Old. Anyway, I will post this out in a new thread if you don't mind as it is a great subject to discuss. Let me know.

Sure, no problem.

Well, Mira, we can discuss the bias or neutrality of the article in Wiki that ssrt mentioned if you like. There's alot there.

[minusthejihad]

Lastly, as a response to ssrt. I also do not advocate any of the following:

from ssrt:
"I do NOT however, think that people deserve to be killed, beaten, or anything of the sort, because of the religion they follow. Persecution based on religious bias has set mankind back far enough as it is, as a Jew you should know that."

[Agnosthiest]

How are Paul's epistles anti-semitic?

[Mediocrates]

The Christians were a fanatical sect who set out to do the one thing the Romans typically executed people for: converting others. The Jews among them didn't feel a pressing need to bring down the Roman empire down on their heads especially since the destruction of the Beit Hamikdash. Jews in the Levant were practically obliterated at that point. With the rise of fanatical Christians, at least until the Bar Kochba uprising around 165-8, that is, for a hundred or so years since the end of the Beit Hamikdash, Jews in the levant had no cultural center, they were crushed and staggering with no country, no temple, small uprisings every so often, and thousands of persecutions from the Romans who didn't make much distinction between Christians and uppity Jews. It was all the same anarchy to them and all got the same treatment. Given this it's easy to see the Jews pushing the Christians out of the way and applying whatever force they could to keeping them from making things worse. Which is why shortly thereafter the centers of the new Christian faith moved to Egypt and Turkey.

[Labyu]

Originally Posted by minusthejihad
The second a Jew follows Christ, he/she is not a Jew. This is very simple.

It's not really that simple,a Jew is a Jew even if they think they think they are a Christian,Buddist,Taoist,Muslim,Satanist,Pagan,Ani mist,Athiest,Homosexual,Humanist,etc.

It is encumbent on us to "bring them back".

Originally Posted by minusthejihad
Secondly, Jews don't have blood on their hands. Nice try though.

I don't know if this was a response to the old saw about the Judgement by Pontius Pilate and the Jews giving him the "thumbs down" in favor of Barrabas or if it's about Christian persecution by Jews in the 1st century but both viewpoints are equally false.

1.The courtyard of Pilate was supposedly 30 yards wide and 60 yards long,I don't think you could fit all of the Jewish anscestors of everyone reading this thread much less of all of the Jews in Judea and Samaria!!

If there was such an event it can hardly reflect on all of world's Jews.Besides the oldest written account of such an event was written 150 years after the event was supposed to have happened and by a Gentile 1000 miles away at that!!

2.Regarding persecution of Christians by Jews in the 1st and 2nd century CE I would imagine that the tab is quite even after centuries of mass murder of Jews by the Catholic Church but I will go ahead and bring up the dirty little secret that the Syriac proto-catholic church executed many of the descendents of the original apostolic church for heresy(observing Pesach and keeping Halacah).

That would mean that the doctrinal and spiritual descendents of the Apostles themselves were killed off by the Gentile Christian Church!!!


I think someone would have to be retarded to make this argument.

[Mira]

The Christians were a fanatical sect who set out to do the one thing the Romans typically executed people for: converting others. The Jews among them didn't feel a pressing need to bring down the Roman empire down on their heads especially since the destruction of the Beit Hamikdash. Jews in the Levant were practically obliterated at that point. With the rise of fanatical Christians, at least until the Bar Kochba uprising around 165-8, that is, for a hundred or so years since the end of the Beit Hamikdash, Jews in the levant had no cultural center, they were crushed and staggering with no country, no temple, small uprisings every so often, and thousands of persecutions from the Romans who didn't make much distinction between Christians and uppity Jews. It was all the same anarchy to them and all got the same treatment. Given this it's easy to see the Jews pushing the Christians out of the way and applying whatever force they could to keeping them from making things worse. Which is why shortly thereafter the centers of the new Christian faith moved to Egypt and Turkey.

I think people get mixed up with the timing of events. We are still talking about persecuting Jews here when the Jewish leadership still had any authority to persecute anyone on behalf of the Jewish people and / or Rome. The religious leadership may have viewed Jesus and his followers as Zealots (Judas himself was originally a Zealot, right?). There is a lot of dispute as to what these Jews were preaching, but if they were considered politically subversive, then they posed a danger to both Rome and therefore the Jewish community irrespective of whatever theological differences existed at the time. Whatever the differnces, and it is generally agreed that these differences developed and increased over time, the Jews had no authority to punish anyone after 70 AD.

[Mira]

To the extent that people want to use the New Testament for support, it should be remembered that these gospels were written after the death of Jesus and during a time of great turmoil for Jewish life and when the divorce between the two communities was taking place. Much of it is constructed as a response or rebuttal to prior arguments about the life and times of Jesus rather than simply an historical account and these accounts were later hand selected by the Church. You can find similar creations in the Talmud too. If you view the various historical accounts as true, then what we know is that Jesus was executed by Rome because he was viewed as political subversive. The Sadducces led the Sanhedrin at the time and they were appointed by Rome. Their responsibilities were divided between Rome and the Jewish people. According to the New Testament accounts, Paul himself persecuted the followers of Jesus, but these obviously weren’t “Christians,” because this was happening before Paul “converted” and started to spread the message of Jesus to the gentiles. Though some of these Jewish followers of Jesus were persecuted by the religious establishment, there are many accounts within Christian literature of Pharisees who sides against the Sadducces in favor of Jesus, Paul and James. What’s more, The Sanhedrin was abolished after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The Jews thereafter had no authority to persecute anyone and were subjedt to constant persecution themselves.

[Agnosthiest]

So did jews persecute christians?

Logically I think they would have had.

[Mira]

So did jews persecute christians?

Logically I think they would have had.

No, some Jews (the ones appointed by Rome) persecuted other Jews.

[Agnosthiest]

No, some Jews (the ones appointed by Rome) persecuted other Jews.

and those persecuted jews, where some of them the followers of Jesus?



how were the Pauline epistles anti-semitic?