Time-Line for the History of Judaism

[ygalg1]

HISTORICAL CHART

Time-Line for the History of Judaism
Adopted from the University of Pennsylvania course
Religious Studies 014 (R. Kraft, revised Jan 1993)
Much of this material is drawn from the charts in the introductory textbooks by Sigel, Neusner, Denny and Peters.
Back to RST23 homepage and its links.
This page was designed by Koala Net.

Individuals whose birth dates are known are placed on the chart at approximately the time they would be 30 years old. BCE means "before the common era" (= Christian "BC" notation). CE means "of the common era" (= Christian "AD" notation).


Tip: to find a specific name or date use the Edit | Find facility at the top of your browser.

The Dawn of "History" as we know it (Sumer, Egypt): [ca. 3000 BCE]
Context of Ancient Israelite religion: [ca. 2000-587 BCE]
Judaism after the Babylonian Exile: [ca. 538 BCE-70 CE]
Early Christian Period of Development: [30-311 CE]
Rabbinic Jewish Period of Talmud Development: [70-400/600 CE]
Consolidation & Dominance of Classical Christianity: [325-1517]
"Medieval" Period in the West: [ca. 600-1500]

Reception & Classical Development of Muhammad's Islamic Message: [610-1258]
Further Transitions and Rebuilding of Political Islam: [1258-1500]
Islamic Political Dominance as far East as India: [ca. 1500-1920]
Reformation and Post-Reformation Christian Period: [1517-present]
Jewish Transitions towards Modernity: [ca.1550-1700]
Jewish Modern and Contemporary Periods: [ca. 1700-present]
Islamic Unrest and Realignment in the Middle East: [ca. 1914-present]

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The Dawn of "History" as we know it (Sumer, Egypt): ca. 3000 BCE

Early Dynastic period (Akkad): ca. 2800
Old Kingdom period (Egypt): ca. 2700-2400
Ebla flourishes: ca. 2500-2200
Priestess Enheduanna, first known author in the worid: ca. 2300-2200

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Context of Ancient Israelite religion: ca. 2000-587 BCE

Middle Kingdom period (Egypt): 2100-1780
Old Babylonian period: ca. 2000-1750
Israel's Patriarchal period: ca. 2000-1700
Abraham & Sarah, Isaak & Ishmael: ca. 1850/1750/1700
Origin of traditions of the "Abrahamic covenant"
Traditions of Jacob/Israel and the 12 Patriarchs
Old Assyrian period: ca. 1900-1400
Hammurabi: ca. 1792-1750
Hittite empire: ca. 1750-1200
Hyksos in Egypt: ca. 1700-1550
Kassite period (Babylonia): ca. 1600-1150
New Kingdom period (Egypt): ca. l570-1085
Ugaritic texts: ca. 1500-1200
Middle Assyrian period: ca. 1400-900
Amarna period (Egypt): ca. 1400-1300
Mosaic period (Israel); ca. 1300-1200
Exodus from Egypt, Sinai Torah, Canaan Entry: ca. 1250-1200
Sea Peoples invade Egypt and Syro-Palestine: ca. 1200
Period of the Judges (Israel): ca. 1200-1050/1000
Middle Babylonian period: ca. 1150-900
Hebrew prophets (Samuel-Malachi): ca. 1050-450
Monarchical period in Israel: ca. 1000-587
Saul (transitional king): ca. 1030-1010
David, making Jerusalem his capital: ca. 1010-970
Solomon, and building of the Temple: ca. 970-931
Secession of Northern Kingdom (Israel) from
Southern Kingdom (Judah): ca. 931
Neo-Assyrian period: 900-612
Israelite Prophets Amos, Hosea, Isaiah: 750-725
Northern Kingdom (Israel) destroyed: 722/721
Neo-Babylonian ("Chaldean") period: 612-538
Josiah (Judean King) and "Deuteronomic Reforms": 620
Judean Prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel: ca. 600-580
Southern Kingdom (Judah) and Temple destroyed -- Babylonian exile: 587/586
Judean Prophet "Second Isaiah": ca. 550

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Judaism after the Babylonian Exile: ca. 538 BCE-70 CE

Persian Period: 538-333
Edict of Cyrus (first return from Exile): 538
Jerusalem ("Second") Temple rebuilt: 520-515
Judean Prophet Haggai: 520
Reformation led by Ezra and Nehemiah: 450-400
Torah (Pentateuch = first division of Jewish Scriptures) begins to gain recognition as Scripture: ca. 450
Hellenistic (Greek) period: 333-63
Alexander the Great conquers Palestine: 333/331
Judaism under Greek Ptolemies & Seleukids: ca. 320-168
"Septuagint" translation of Torah into Greek: ca. 250
Coming of Rome to the east Mediterranean: ca. 230-146
Prophets (second division of Jewish Scriptures) recognized by some as Scripture by ca. 200
Jewish Qumran community: ca. 200 BCE-135 CE
Jewish Maccabean revolt & Hasmonean rule: 168/167-63 BCE
Rome (Pompey) annexes Palestine: 63 BCE
Rule of Rome: ca. 146 BCE-400 CE
Herod the Great (Jewish Roman ruler of Palestine): 37-4 BCE
Hillel & Shammai (Jewish sages): turn of the era
Rome establishes direct rule of prefects in Judea: 6 CE
Philo Judaeus of Alexandria: ca. 13 BCE-after 41 CE
Joshua/Jesus "the Christ": before 4 BCE-ca. 30 CE
Gamliel/Gamaliel I (Jewish leader-scholar): fl. ca. 40 CE
Paul "the apostle" (Jewish "Christian"): fl. 36-64 CE
Josephus (Jewish leader, historian): ca. 37-100 CE
Christian Testament (NT) writings: ca. 50-125 CE

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Early Christian Period of Development: 30-311 CE
Rabbinic Jewish Period of Talmud Development: 70-400/600 CE

First Jewish Revolt against Rome: 66-73
Destruction of Jerusalem and the second Temple: 70
Establishment of Jewish center for study at Yavneh/Jamnia
(Yohanan ben Zakkai), with rabbinic ordination: ca. 73
Gamaliel II excludes sectarians (including Christians) from the synagogues: ca. 90-100
Writings (third and last division of Jewish Scriptures) discussed and accepted as sacred scripture: ca. 90-150
Jewish Revolts against Rome outside Palestine: 114-117
Aqiba/Akiba active in consolidating Rabbinic Judaism: 120-135
Bar Kokhba rebellion (Second Jewish Revolt): 132-135
Jerusalem renamed, Jews forbidden to dwell there
Mishnah compiled/edited under Judah the Prince: ca. 200
Sporadic persecution of Christianity by Rome: to 311
Origen (Christian scholar, biblical interpreter): fl. 200-254
Babylonian Jewish Academy founded at Sura by Rab: ca. 220
Rise of Mani/Manichaean World Religion synthesis: 240-276
Babylonian Jews flourish (as does Manichaeism) under Persian King Shapur I: ca. 250
Early development of Christian monasticism in Egypt: 250-330
Eusebius (Christian author, historian): 263-339
Violent persecution of Christians by Emperor Diocletian: 303
Emperor Constantine embraces Christianity: 312/313

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Consolidation & Dominance of Classical Christianity: 325-1517

Christian First Ecumenical Council, at Nicea (Asia Minor): 325
Jerusalem Christian construction under Constantine, Helena: 330
Jerome (Christian author, translator): ca. 325-420
Augustine (Christian author in North Africa): 354-430
Christianity becomes THE religion of Roman Empire: 380/391
Jewish Palestinian Talmud edited: ca. 400
Jewish Babylonian Talmud edited: ca. 400-600
Rome sacked by Visigoths: 410
Jewish office of Nasi/Prince abolished by Rome: 425
Christian Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon: 451
Benedictine Latin Christian monastery founded: 535

[ygalg1]

...

"Medieval" Period in the West: ca. 600-1500
Reception & Classical Development of Muhammad's Islamic Message: 610-1258

Muhammad ("the Prophet" of Islam): ca. 570-632
Prophetic call and start of Quranic revelations: ca 610
The hijra (emigration) from Mecca to Medina: 622
Capitulation of Mecca, rededication of Kaba: 630
Pope Gregory the Great: 590-604
Period of the Jewish Rabbinic Geonim: ca. 600-1300
The four "rightly guided caliphs" of Islam: 632-661
Jews permitted to return to Jerusalem under Islam: 638
Assasination of Ali (last of the four): 661
Umayyad Dynasty of Islam in Damascus (Syria): 661-750
Muslim Attacks on Christian Constantinople: 669, 674
Massacre of Ali's son Husayn and Shiites (Iraq): 680
John of Damascus (Christian scholar): ca. 675-749
Muslim Forces Attack Spain Successfully: 711
Islam repulsed at Tours (France), gateway to Europe: 732
Karaism founded (Jewish reaction to Rabbinic Judaism): ca. 760
Charlemagne (France; Holy Roman Empire: 800): 742-814
Abbasid Dynasty of Islam in Baghdad (Iraq) -- the "golden age" of Islamic culture: 750-1258
Abu Hanifa (Muslim theologian and jurist in Iraq): ??-767
Malik ibn Anas (jurist, collector of hadiths, Medina): 710-795
Caliph Harun al-Rashid rules in "1001 Nights" style: ca. 800
Mutazilite rationalism developed and debated: ca. 800-950
Caliph Mamun sponsors translations of Greek learning into Arabic (Arabic science flourishes): ca. 825
Ibn Hanbal (jurist, collector of hadiths, Baghdad): 855
Bukhari and Muslim (collectors of hadiths): 870 and 875
Shiite "twelvers" arise: 874
Continuation of Umayyad Muslim rule in Spain: to 12th century
Al-Ashari (ex-Mutazilite Muslim scholar): ??-935
Saadia Gaon (Rabbinic Jewish sage): 882-942
Execution of Hallaj, radical Persian Muslim mystic/sufi: 922
Golden Age in Spain (Islamic Umayyad dynasty): ca. 950-1150
Founding of Cairo (and soon thereafter Azhar University) by the Islamic Shiite Fatimid dynasty in Egypt: 969
Ibn Sina (Avicenna; Muslim Platonist philosopher): ??-1037
Final split ("schism") between Latin (Roman) and Greek (Byzantine) Classical Christian Churches: 1053/54
William the Conquerer (Norman) takes England: 1066
Rashi (Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac; Jewish sage): 1040-1105
Ghazali (Persian Muslim scholar and mystic): 1058-1111
Crusades (Christian warfare with Islam in Palestine): 1095-1291
Crusaders (European Christians) capture Jerusalem: 1099
Judah Halevi (Jewish author): 1085-1140
Bernard of Clairvaux (Christian mystic): 1090-1153
Ibn Rushd (Averroes; Muslim Aristotleian philosopher): ??-1198
Maimonides (Rabbi Moses ben Maimon; Jewish scholar): 1135-1204
Saladin (1138-1193) overthrows Fatimid dynasty in Egypt: 1171
Saladin (Muslim) recaptures Jerusalem from crusaders: 1187
Ibn Arabi (Spanish Muslim mystic poet): 1165-1240
Muhammad Ghuri (Islam) conquers northern India: 1203
Francis of Assisi (Christian mystic): ca. 1181-1226
Pope Innocent III (Christian): 1198-1216
The Zohar (a Jewish kabalistic book): written ca. 13th century
Death of Genghis/Genghiz Khan (roving Mongol conquerer): 1227
Inquisition by Christians in Spain: ca. 1230
Jalal al-Din Rumi (Muslim mystic poet from Turkey): 1207-1273
Thomas Aquinas (Christian scholar): 1225-1274
Mamluk Islamic rule (new dynasty) in Egypt: 1254-1517
Fall of Islamic Abbasid dynasty to Hulagu (Mongol): 1258

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Further Transitions and Rebuilding of Political Islam: 1258-1500

Expulsion of Jews from England: 1290/1291
Expulsion of Christian Crusaders from Syria: 1291
Italian Renaissance: 1300-1517
Expulsions of Jews from France: 1306-1394
John Wycliffe (Christian dissident leader): 1328-1384
Rise of the Ottoman Muslim dynasty in Turkey: 14th century
Timurlane/Tamurlane, Turkic ruler in central Asia: 1336-1405
Damascus sacked by Timurlane: 1400
Fall of Constantinople (Istanbul) to Ottoman Muslims: 1453
Gutenberg Bible printed (invention of printing press): 1456
Christian expulsion of Muslim Moors from Spain: 1492
Christian expulsion of Jews from Spain, Portugal: 1492, 1496

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Islamic Political Dominance as far East as India: ca. 1500-1920
Reformation and Post-Reformation Christian Period: 1517-present
Jewish Transitions towards Modernity: ca.1550-1700

Dominance of Ottoman Muslim Empire in Turkey, etc.: 1500-1920
Victory of (Muslim Ottoman Turk) Selim I over Egypt: 1517
Ottoman Muslim rulers (later) claim the title "caliph"
Sulayman I, "the Magnificent," rules: 1520-1566
Dominance of Safavid Shiite Muslim dynasty in Iran: ca. 1500-1800
Dominance of Mughal Muslim dynasty in India: ca. 1500-1800
Babur (1483-1530, central Asia) begins conquest of India: 1525
Protestant Christian Reformation: ca. 1500-1650
Martin Luther: 1483-1546
Luther posts "95 theses" in Wittenburg, Germany: 1517
Luther preaches against Jews: 1542-1546
Thomas Cranmer: 1489-1556
William Tyndale: ca. 1494-1536
John Calvin: 1509-1564
Jewish ghettos instituted (Venice, Rome): 1516, 1555
Shulhan Aruk (code of Jewish law by Joseph Karo/Caro): published 1567/1571
Rene Descartes (scholar-philosopher): 1596-1650
Menasseh ben Israel (Jewish scholar-mystic): 1605-1657
Christian Puritans begin emigrations to America: 1620
Blaise Pascal (scholar): 1623-1662
Shabbatai Zvi (Jewish "messianic" leader): 1626-1676
Baruch/Benedict Spinoza (scholar, converted Jew): 1632-1677
Arrival of Jews in New Amsterdam (= New York, America): 1654
Jews readmitted to England by Oliver Cromwell: 1655
Jews expelled from Vienna: 1670

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Jewish Modern and Contemporary Periods: ca. 1700-present

Israel Baal Shem Tov (founder of Jewish Hasidism): 1700-1760
Jonathan Edwards (American Christian preacher): 1703-1758
John and Charles Wesley (Christian): 1703-1791 and 1707-1788
First public Jewish synagogue in Berlin: 1712
Wahhabi "fundamentalist" movement arises in Islam: ca. 1750
Moses Mendelssohn (Jewish "enlightenment" scholar): 1729-1786
Napoleon (France): 1769-1821
American Revolution; religious freedom guaranteed: 1775-1781
French Revolution: 1789
French Jews given citizenship: 1790-1791
Napoleon, battle of the Pyramids in Islamic Egypt: 1798
Muslim Wahhabis capture Mecca & Medinah, raid Karbala: 1801-1804
Rise of the Jewish Reform movement in Europe (Abraham Geiger): mid-19th century
French occupation of Muslim Algiers: 1830
American Civil War: 1861-1865
Ghettos abolished in Italy: 1870
Reform Judaism in US establishes Union of American Hebrew Congregations: 1873
Start of mass migrations of eastern European Jews: 1881
French occupation of Muslim Tunisia: 1881
British occupation of Muslim Egypt: 1882
Reform Jewish Pittsburg Platform: 1885
Founding of Conservative Judaism, in US (Solomon Schechter): end of 19th century (Jewish Theological Seminary: 1886)
Theodore Herzl publishes The Jewish State (Zionism): 1896
First Jewish Zionist congress: 1897
Founding of the Modern Jewish Orthodox movement: early 20th century
Revolution by "young Turks" under Ottomans: 1908
Founding of Tel Aviv as Hebrew speaking Jewish city: 1909
World War I: 1914-1918

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Islamic Unrest and Realignment in the Middle East: ca. 1914-present

Start of Arab revolt against Ottoman Turkish rule: 1916
British capture Baghdad: 1917
Balfour Declaration favors Jewish Palestinian State: 1917
Damascus taken by T.E.Lawrence and Arabs: 1918
Egyptian revolution: 1919
Kingdoms of Iraq and Jordan established: 1921
Overthrow of Ottoman Muslim rule by "young Turks" (Kemal
Ataturk) and establishment of secular state: 1923
Caliphate officially abolished: 1924
Pahlevi dynasty in Persia (= "Iran": 1935): 1925-1979
Kingdom of Saudi Arabia established: 1932
Adolph Hitler becomes Chancellor of Germany: 1933
Jewish rights in Germany rescinded by Nuremberg laws: 1935
Reform Jewish Columbus Platform (Zionism, etc.): 1937
German Jewish synagogues burned down: 9 Nov 1938
World War II: 1939-1945
The Nazi German Holocaust against Jews: 1939/1942-1945
Partition of India and Pakistan: 1947
Declaration of independence of the State of Israel: 1948
Libya proclaims independence: 1952
Egyptian republic proclaimed, Nassar takes over: 1953, 1954
Sudan & Tunisia independence, Pakistan Republic: 1956
United Arabic Republic established: 1958
Founding of the Jewish Reconstructionist movement (as a distinct denomination; Mordecai Kaplan): 1960s
"Six Days War" reunites Jerusalem under Israeli control: 1967
"Yom Kippur War" in Israel: 1973
Ordination of first (Reform) Jewish woman rabbi in US: 1972
Ordination of first Reconstructionist Jewish woman rabbi: 1974
"Black Muslims" in America cultivate Sunni recognition: 1975
Ordination of first Conservative Jewish woman rabbi: 1984/1985
Persian Gulf War to maintain stability: 1990-1991

[Muslima]

HISTORICAL CHART

Interesting list!

By the way, can anyone enlighten please,

When was the first Torah written or scribed? was the oral law written at the same time? Was it during the life of Prophet Moses or after? and if so how long after? and where is it?

[Mira]

Interesting list!

By the way, can anyone enlighten please,

When was the first Torah written or scribed? was the oral law written at the same time? Was it during the life of Prophet Moses or after? and if so how long after? and where is it?

I think this is what you're looking for, Muslima

[scattergood]

Interesting list!

By the way, can anyone enlighten please,

When was the first Torah written or scribed? was the oral law written at the same time? Was it during the life of Prophet Moses or after? and if so how long after? and where is it?

Muslima you ask a number of seemingly simple questions, but in truth they are pretty complicated. I will try to provide a basic outline of some of the issues, but I am no Rabbi and I am sure there are more informed folks on this board:

1) When was the first Torah written or scribed?

While this question seems simple, there are a few complexities. The first is what do you mean by Torah? To an Orthodox person, you could mean the whole body of written documents that include the 5 Books of Moses, Prophets, Writitings, Gemarra, Mishna, and Midrash, each of which were written at different times. But let's use the narrowest definition of Torah, that of the Torah Scroll or the 5 books of Moses.

Traditional Judaism holds that Moses received both the Written Law (the Torah Scroll or 5 Books of Moses -- Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deurteronomy) at Sinai. He subsequently wrote wandering in the desert during the wanderings over the next 40 years. Every subsequent Torah scroll is supposed to be an exact copy of that original scroll, and while there is no way to verify that, you will find no difference between Torah scrolls anywhere in the world no matter when written, except for something like 6 or 8 minor letters in some Torah Scrolls from Yemen or Eithiopia from groups that were cut off from the rest of the Jewish world.

Here are some links for sources:
http://www.aish.com/literacy/concept..._the_Torah.asp
http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...itten_Law.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

2) Was the oral law written at the same time?

The short answer is no it wasn't. The Oral Law is also known as the Oral Torah. The traditional view is that it was given to Moses at Sinai who then repeated it to his brothers in front of the other lay leaders, who then had to explain it to each other in front of Moses. Thus each group both learned and taught the Oral Torah to each other with a third party present to keep it true to its word.

Another support for the Oral Torah being given at that time is there are a ton of ideas contained in the Written Torah, that without explanations would be worthless. For example "You will make tsitsi on the corner of your garments." What the heck is a tsitsi? "You will keep my Sabbaths holy unto you". What is a Sabbath, when do you 'keep' it, and what does it mean to 'keep' it. All of these explanatory rules were supposed to be in the Oral Torah.

After a string of horrendeous losses, the desctruction of the Second Temple, the Great Revolt and the Bar-Kokhba rebellion when the Jews of Judea were murdered and spread among the Roman Empier, Rabbi Judah the Prince decided to form a school and record teh Oral Torah lest all of it be lost forever. This occurred in 200 CE. Over the next 200 years two sets of recordings were made, the Palestinian and the Babylonian Talmuds. The Babylonian is more complete and thus the one usually referred to. There are two sections that make up the Talmud, the Mishna and the Gemara. The original writings of Rabbi Judah the Price were the Oral Laws themselves in the form of the Mishna. Think of it as the dry law, "thou shalt do this" or "thou shall not do that". Subsequently, discussions around what the meanings of each rule are were given as examples or case law. This is called the Gemara. It is examples and stories that explain the Oral Torah and are in the forms of conversations between Rabbis of different ages seen on the same page.

Here are some links for reference:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/..._&_mishna.html
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../Oral_Law.html
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Scr...ral_torah.html
http://www.aish.com/shavuotsinai/shavuotsinaidefault/What_is_the_Oral_Torah$.asp
http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/torah.htm

3)Was it during the life of Prophet Moses or after? and if so how long after? and where is it?

The Torah Scroll or 5 Books of Moses is generally believed from a religious point of view to be written by Moses as dictated by G-d in Moses' lifetime, with the exception of a the last few verses who were dictated by Moses on his deathbead and written by Joshua his brother.

The Oral Torah has been written starting around 200CE and compiled by a group of Rabbis starting with Rabbi Judah the Prince and going on for the next 150 years for the laws themselves in the form of the Mishna and over the next 1000 years in the form of a discussion of case law by various Rabbis in the form of the Gemara.

You can buy any of these books at a Jewish bookstore.

The Written Torah can be found with the additional writings of the Prophets (Joshua, Isaiah, Exekiel, etc.) and Writings (Psalms, Proverbs, Ruth, Lamenations, etc.) which in combination make up the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible.

The Talmud (the combination of the Mishan and Gemara) can be found in 63 separate books that deal with areas of subject matter such as the Sabbath,Temple Sacrifices, Ritual Purity, etc.

I hope that helps and if you have any more questions I'd be happy to tacke them.

[Muslima]

I think this is what you're looking for, Muslima

Actually not, i certainly wasn't after John Gilchrist's fabrications, Mira which are debunked here.
Jamc al-Qur'ân:
An Exposition Of John Gilchrist's Deceptive Methodology
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Gilchrist/

Christian missionary's like Gilchrist, have always seen Islam as a big threat to their efforts. The findings of unbiased people count for more when they research the authenticity of the Quran, ie. how would the likes of John Gilchrist respond to :

“…It will thus be seen, from the above, that a final and complete text of the Qur’an was prepared within twenty years after the death (A.D 632) of Muhammad, and that this has remained the same, without any change, or alteration by enthusiasts, translators, or interpolators, up to the present time. It is to be regretted that the same cannot be said of all the books of the Old and New Testaments. (F.F. Arbuthnot, The construction of the Bible and the Qur’an, London 1885, p.5)


"In the last century, an Institute of Munich University in Germany collected FORTY-TWO THOUSAND copies of the Holy Qur’an including manuscripts and printed texts produced in each period in the various parts of the Islamic World. Research work was carried out on these texts for half a century, at the end of which the researchers concluded that apart from copying mistakes, there was no discrepancy in the text of these forty-two thousand copies, even though they belonged to the period between the first century to fourteenth century of Hijrah and had been procured from all parts of the world. This Institute, alas, perished in the bombing attacks on Germany during World War II, but the findings of its research project survived"

[Muslima]

Muslima you ask a number of seemingly simple questions, but in truth they are pretty complicated. I will try to provide a basic outline of some of the issues, but I am no Rabbi and I am sure there are more informed folks on this board:

I hope that helps and if you have any more questions I'd be happy to tacke them.

Thanks Scattergood, i will look over all those links. I guess it would have made more sense for me to ask
"Where is the oldest scribe in existence today, and how old is it?"

I know they are complicated questions.....i was hoping maybe there was a Rebbe here could answer them.

[Mira]

Actually not, i certainly wasn't after John Gilchrist's fabrications, Mira which are debunked here.
Jamc al-Qur'ân:
An Exposition Of John Gilchrist's Deceptive Methodology
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Gilchrist/

Christian missionary's like Gilchrist, have always seen Islam as a big threat to their efforts. The findings of unbiased people count for more when they research the authenticity of the Quran, ie. how would the likes of John Gilchrist respond to :

“…It will thus be seen, from the above, that a final and complete text of the Qur’an was prepared within twenty years after the death (A.D 632) of Muhammad, and that this has remained the same, without any change, or alteration by enthusiasts, translators, or interpolators, up to the present time. It is to be regretted that the same cannot be said of all the books of the Old and New Testaments. (F.F. Arbuthnot, The construction of the Bible and the Qur’an, London 1885, p.5)


"In the last century, an Institute of Munich University in Germany collected FORTY-TWO THOUSAND copies of the Holy Qur’an including manuscripts and printed texts produced in each period in the various parts of the Islamic World. Research work was carried out on these texts for half a century, at the end of which the researchers concluded that apart from copying mistakes, there was no discrepancy in the text of these forty-two thousand copies, even though they belonged to the period between the first century to fourteenth century of Hijrah and had been procured from all parts of the world. This Institute, alas, perished in the bombing attacks on Germany during World War II, but the findings of its research project survived"

Your first link is hardly unbiased. As to what you quoted,it affirms that the Quran was compiled after the death of Mohamed. And yes, there have been changes made to the Quran since it was compiled. There are several different translations in existence today. If the Quran is so holy then why are translations allowed to deviate one from the other?

[Mira]

Thanks Scattergood, i will look over all those links. I guess it would have made more sense for me to ask
"Where is the oldest scribe in existence today, and how old is it?"

I know they are complicated questions.....i was hoping maybe there was a Rebbe here could answer them.

I can't give you an exact date, but I do know that it predates Islam.

[Muslima]

Your first link is hardly unbiased. ?

Sorry i meant the second link.

And as for the first link,

Just like Rebbe's would know when the first Torah was compiled, (that's why i raised the subject here) it stands to reason that Muslim mufti's and scholars would know when the Quran was compiled. I would be sceptical about anything John Gilchrist says about the Torah for the same reason. Especially since he has been rebutted by Islamic scholars.

Are you saying Christian missionaries should be relied on for explaining the Quran?

As to what you quoted,it affirms that the Quran was compiled after the death of Mohamed. And yes, there have been changes made to the Quran since it was compiled. There are several different translations in existence today. If the Quran is so holy then why are translations allowed to deviate one from the other

No Mira, the Quran was COMPILED during the Prophets life, and checked by him. It was put into a WRITTEN form, after his death, (ie. all scribes gathered together and into one, in the order they were revealed)

The Quran has to be read in ARabic. That is the standard language. ARabic is the most difficult of all the languages to learn. No translation does it justice that 's why translations sound/are understood different.

Also, there are different interpretations, for each verse has Hadith's attached to them. Some are weak hadith's and some strong. (called Sunnah) This is what the Sunni's follow.

The Shia don't accept the Sunnah as binding, but have their own sources, usually spiritual leaders, (can be mildly compared to a papal system, but not exactly papal if you know what i mean) .

The Prophet foretold, that after his death his Ummah would eventually split into about 72 different sects.

[Womble]

When was the first Torah written or scribed?

The entire Torah text is assumed to have been given on the Sinai mountain after the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt (which would be somewhere around 1280 BC). The oldest surviving written examples of the actual Torah text (the Dead Sea scrolls and the Nash Papyrus) are from the 2nd century BC, although indirect references are MUCH older. The "Passover scroll" of the Elephantine papyri, which contains detailed instructions on how to celebrate the Pesakh holiday in accordance with the Torah, is dated around 400 BCE, and it is by no means the earliest such source. However, papyri and parchment documents from earlier times generally survive very rarely because the material, by its very nature, is easily destroyed by the slightest presence of humidity, and the inks back then weren't very stable.

was the oral law written at the same time?

The Oral Law is called Oral precisely BECAUSE it wasn't originally written

The Oral law is perhaps the single most misunderstood concept in Judaism- misunderstood by the outsiders, I mean. It is NOT some kind of an alternative account of the Torah or an alternative set of God's commandments. What the Oral law is is basically a body of supplemental knowledge that was necessery for clarifying the specifics of the commandments of the written Torah. The Torah text often refers to things that clearly require prior knowledge from outside the text- for example, some things are required to be done "as you were shown on the Sinai mountain"; the ritual slaughter laws in Deuteronomy 12 are to be done "as I have commanded you", whereas no specific commandment of this kind can be found in the text; the concept of tefillin and tsitsit are mentioned, yet not described; there are many references to "keep the laws of Shabbat", while it is not explicitly explained what these laws actually are. The Oral law is the preserved knowledge of these specific details. It existed as a strictly oral tradition until the second exile of the Jews from the Holy Land, but since after the exile the Jewish people were dispersed around the world and it became harder to pass on the oral tradition, it was written down in a book called Mishnah.

[Mediocrates]

Thanks Scattergood, i will look over all those links. I guess it would have made more sense for me to ask
"Where is the oldest scribe in existence today, and how old is it?"

I know they are complicated questions.....i was hoping maybe there was a Rebbe here could answer them.

The oldest Shema exists on copper plates from the 9th Century BCE. The oldest physical Torah fragments are from around the 3rd or 4th Century BCE. They were transcribed from Hebrew to Aramaic since the goal was to be understood. Later on Torah was transcribed from Hebrew to Greek about 2100 years ago give or take.

[Mira]

If Muslims have to try and emphasize some deluded notion of an unadulterated Quran and an adulterated Torah to uphold their claims of religious supremacy, then you are one insecure lot. I don't even care if you do have an "unadulterated" text (which I don't believe for a minute). None of you can agree among yourselves over how to interpret the text any more than Christians and Jews about our own respective texts and the state of Islamic affairs is extremely poor to say the least. If you really want to convince us to the legitimacy of what is obviously your replacement theology, then you are going to have to be that Light Unto the Nations. You have a long way to go with that, Muslima.

[ygalg1]

If Muslims have to try and emphasize some deluded notion of an unadulterated Quran and an adulterated Torah to uphold their claims of religious supremacy, then you are one insecure lot. I don't even care if you do have an "unadulterated" text (which I don't believe for a minute). None of you can agree among yourselves over how to interpret the text any more than Christians and Jews about our own respective texts and the state of Islamic affairs is extremely poor to say the least. If you really want to convince us to the legitimacy of what is obviously your replacement theology, then you are going to have to be that Light Unto the Nations. You have a long way to go with that, Muslima.

the traditional Islamic believe that jews distort the Torah. there is no if however there are movements of Muslims that disagree with the claim like the Messianic Muslims,Bahi and Muslims Zionists (bizarre I know).
my impression those who claim for distortion are motivated politically than religiously.

[Muslima]

If Muslims have to try and emphasize some deluded notion of an unadulterated Quran and an adulterated Torah to uphold their claims of religious supremacy, then you are one insecure lot. .

It's not a deluded notion. You can call Muslims a lot of things Mira, but insecure isn't one of them

I don't even care if you do have an "unadulterated" text (which I don't believe for a minute). None of you can agree among yourselves over how to interpret the text any more than Christians and Jews about our own respective texts and the state of Islamic affairs is extremely poor to say the least.

That is what a mind and brain are for Mira, we weren't meant to follow blindly. Human's are not sheep. Disagreement is natural. Do you really expect 100% unanimous agreement? That is too much, even for supremacists, and even with a divinely protected book

If you really want to convince us to the legitimacy of what is obviously your replacement theology, then you are going to have to be that Light Unto the Nations. You have a long way to go with that, Muslima

Well, i leave the "light unto the nations" to the Jews, Mira. I don't want to take that away from you