Home | My dear Jewish friends,
Why is it that in your religion, your people had a continous stream of prophets for hundreds of years and then just suddenly they stopped coming? whats the point? what happened?
who was your last prophet? jesus? john the baptist?
do you expect more to come?
We did and still do. Charlie the Chaplain, Karl the Marx, Albert the Einstein, George the Soros..... we have money now, we are angry - no prophits only profits.
Mil - stands for the countless MILlions of reasons not to work.
According to Jewish tradition and I can't point you to the exact source right now, "Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi." - aish.com This isn't entirely acurate; there are exceptions.
http://www.aish.com/literacy/concept...sianic_Era.aspThere is another important reason why the ingathering of the exile must precede the coming of the Messiah. One of our traditions regarding the advent of the Messianic Era is that it will mark the return of prophecy among the Jewish people. Furthermore, according to the final words ever spoken by a prophet, Elijah will return as a prophet and announce the coming of the Messiah, as it is written, "Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and awesome day of God" (Malachi 3:23). This is necessary because the Messiah will be a king, and a king can be anointed only by a prophet. Besides this, the Messiah himself will be a prophet, the greatest of them all, second only to Moses.
Thus, the restoration of prophecy is very important in the unfolding of the Messianic drama. This, however, requires a number of conditions. First of all, prophecy can usually take place only in the Land of Israel, and not in any other land. The Land of Israel, however, is not conducive to prophecy at all times. Before prophecy can exist in the Land of Israel, it must be inhabited by the majority of Jews in the world. Thus, unless we assume that this rule is to be broken, more than half of the Jewish people will have to live in the Land of Israel before the Messianic Era commences.
wasnt most israelites removed from the land after the exile of the 10 tribes?
or were the prophets tied specifically to the tribe of Judah?
is there a point to this "majority" thingie?
so how do jews view jesus and john the baptists? if they were not even prophets, what were they? just some madmen?
what can you say about the gospel writings and claims of jesus' miracles?
Originally Posted by Agnosthiest
Malachi. No.
thanks mediocrates,
what is the jewish point of view about jesus & john the baptist?
what about jesus' alleged miracles?
just curious.
The Jewish view is that they were not prophets and did not perform any miracles in any way. There is no allusion to Jesus in Isaiah or Daniel and Jesus in no way was the messiah or 'born of God' nor was he a decendant of the house of David.
what were they then? do jews believe they even existed?
why wont jews believe that they are prophets? is there any specific requirements to prophethood they these folks failed to meet?
how do you think those stories of miracles came about?
and do you agree with mira's explanation on why prophets just ceased coming in?
Exist or not exist is not an halachic question. It's irrelevant. They were there as much as Herod and Titus and all the others. The Chrisitian stories of their miracles arose out of the early Christian writers who wrote or compiled the gospels, etc.
Mira's explanation is entirely halachic.
If you prefer however the hagiographic reason it's because the Kingdoms of Judea and Israel became politicially and socially unstable about that time. The Torah was being closed, there was no need to worry about each new self proclaimed 'prophet' that happened to wander into town during times of severe social turbulence, which is pretty common, as it was 600 years later in the time of Jesus. After all Jesus and John the Baptist were only two of many many many 'prophets' who were wandering around Roman occupied Judea at the time. History has been fortunate to them - it could have just as easily been two other men.
He was bruised for our iniquties, wounded for our transgressions and with his stripes we are healed. (Isaiah 53) Forgive if my wording isn't exactly the quote, but doesn't that sound just a bit like Christ's atonement to you?
From Aish:
From news article:
In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.
Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.
From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nanianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."
The verse in hebrew says "brusied FROM our iniquities," not FOR. The original text didn't contain seperate chapters, so you have to look at the entire context of what's happening in Isaiah. In what is now chapter 52, Israel is described as "oppressed without cause" (v.4) and "taken away" (v.5), yet God promises a brighter future ahead where Israel will again prosper and be reddemed in the sight of all the nations. (v. 1-3, 8-12). In what is now chapter 54, we see a continuation of the prophecy which begins at 52.13. Chapter 54 ends with "Any weapon whetted against you shall not succeed, and any tongue that contends with you in judgment, you shall condemn; this is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and their due reward from Me, says the Lord." (v.17).
Throughout Isaiah, Israel is explicitly referred to as the servant of the Lord both in the singular and plural (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3), and there other references to Israel as the Lord's servant (see Jer: 30:10...30:17 where the servant Israel is regarded as an outcast, forsaken by God).
The themes that are used in Isaiah are echoed throughout the Torah when referring to Israel (e.g. King David referes to Israel in Pslams as "sheep to the slaughter), and Israel as the "arm" or "right hand" of God" Duet, Isa.; Ps.
To You: If you believe that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus and you believe that Jesus "died" a young man on the cross, then how do you reconcile that with 53:10, which says that "...he shall see his seed and prolong his days..."?
This is what I believe:
From Mosiah 15:
10 And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?
11 Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord—I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God.
12 For these are they whose sins he has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed?
13 Yea, and are not the prophets, every one that has opened his mouth to prophesy, that has not fallen into transgression, I mean all the holy prophets ever since the world began? I say unto you that they are his seed.
Wow! That's the first quote from the Book of Morman that I think we have ever had on this forum. I figured that there was a spiritual interpretation along those lines. I think that's a credible (and quite lovely) interpretation, even though it's not our own.
Aw, shucks, Mira. Thanks.
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