Is the Government Zionist At All?

[physics]

You are right. The "Israeli-Arabs" that despise Israel while enjoying the benefits of Israeli citizenship don't belong in Israel, or at least don't deserve Israeli citizenship. They are a problem to Israel.

[NewsGuy]

1) Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens, and wish to remain so. They are not "ruled over" any more than I myself am ruled over. So lets get the semantics right.

There have already been some responses to this, so I won't rehash them again, other than to say that the Arabs in Israel do not wish to stay Israeli citizens. They do not support a Jewish or Zionist state. Instead, they wish to have a Muslim Arab state. They are enemies of Israel and are sucking the country dry with enormous welfare needs and next to nothing in productivity.

So, yes, you are imposing your rule over 1.5 million Arabs as long as the country is officially Jewish or Zionist.

2) I do not have any bond or shared history (or fate) with the Israeli Arabs. If there was a viable way to relocate them, I'd be all in favor.

Good. The way is to do so is clear. Bring out the army and use the same forceful expulsion tactics that were used to transfer the Jewish population out of Gaza, and the same plan that will be used to transfer 250,000 Jews from the West Bank. It will work in the Arab-occupied territories in Haifa, Yaffo, East Jerusalem and everywhere else in Israel.

In reality, though, Israel will miss the opportunity to have a reciprocal population exchange, and Israel will no longer have a Jewish majority in 3-4 generations.

On the other hand, the 50% of present-day school children who are observant will soon enough put in place laws that will protect against the Islamization of Israel, and I wonder if that will cause a civil war at some point in the future.

[Overload]

Of course the picture is much different as long as Israel keeps ruling the 2.5-3.5 million Pals. whatever the preffered solution might be, this is the burning issue that needs to be addressed by the next gov't. and I agree with MIra that time is running against Israel.

Ignoring the fact that the 3.5 million figure is made up by the Palestinian Census Bureau, a PA organization that has an incentive in inflating the number of Palestinian Arabs in Judea and Samaria for both propaganda reasons and the increased international aid that comes with a bloated paper population, why does Israel have to rule over any Arabs?

The reason that the PA was organized was so Palestinian Arabs had self rule and because PA forces could keep the peace among fellow Arabs better than an Israel harassed by the High Court of Justice; Rabin said as much. But now Hamas runs the PA, and yet we are still talking about surrendering land to Hamas. The fact that Hamas was allowed to run in the elections, which goes against explicit agreements under the Oslo Accords already shows that the whole "peace process" is a sham and the Palestinian Authority is a failure, so yes, Israel has to look at alternative options.

I understand that Israel is finally attempting (in the most inept fashion) to solidify its borders, and clam up as a turtle in its shell against the outside world. On the other hand, the Israeli government has failed to learn from its mistakes, it doesn't analyze its past actions, it ignores the worsening situation in the Gaza strip (the smuggling of advanced weapons, the infiltration of Iranian and Iraqi terrorists into the strip, the daily bombardments by rockets and even katysushas). It hasn't waited to see the ripple of the effects from the expulsions. How does Israel plan on separating the Palestinian reliance on Israeli utilities? What does it plan to do about Palestinian workers coming in to work in Israel? When will it work to institute a custom service between Gaza and Egypt? What is Israel's plan to stop Gaza from becoming a launching pad for more attacks and who will keep security there? Who will absorb and restore the livelihoods of 100,000 thousand Israeli pioneers in Judea and Samaria when they can't provide for 10,000? Since the government has immediately announced that it wants to run away from Judea and Samaria without analyzing its previous actions, then we can safely announce that they are not clamming up, but following an ostrich strategy of putting their heads in the ground and hoping for the best.

If it is not feasible to transfer Arabs (apparently its feasible to transfer Jews), and the Israeli government is Zionist, than why doesn't it declare that the Jewish people and Israel want to retain control over its ancient patrimony, and put its effort in restoring the political situation as it was prior to the Jordanian Peace treaty, when Arab residents of Judea and Samaria were citizens of Jordan? That solves many major problems immediately.

Jordan would declare itself the sole representative of Palestinian Arab people, Israel would still hold on to Judea and Samaria, Palestinian Arabs would be part of a more or less decent Arab state with democratic institutions that has a 65% Palestinian Arab population and a Palestinian Arab heir to the throne. The Palestinian Arabs would live in Judea and Samaria, but they would not be beholden to Israel for either services or voting rights. Many of them have relatives in Jordan and families who fled the fighting and now live there.

Let them vote in Amman and let us keep our land.

[Overload]

What do people have against moving the Settlers to develop the Negev, instead of risking their lives and the lives of soldiers protecting them?

Havent' you heard of not giving in to terrorism? Arabs don't determine where Jews can live in their ancient homeland.

Here, perhaps Kyle Broflowski can teach you something about caving in to terrorism. http://media.michellemalkin.com/4-12SouthPark.wmv

[Leon]

Kadima - Follow Me Straight to the Middle of Nowhere
by Naomi Ragen (27 February 2006)

http://www.naomiragen.com/Columns/Fo...%20Nowhere.htm

During dinner one evening at the recent Herzlyia Conference I sat next to a well-fed local businessman, a man of middle-age with an expensive black suit and shiny black hair. We were there to hear Benjamin Netanyahu, so we got to talking politics. Are you going to vote for him?” I asked. He shook his head no. “I’m going to vote for Kadima,” he said, painting a straight line in the air with his finger. “Right down the middle.”

“In what way,” I asked him in surprise, “is Kadima in the middle?”

He looked at me blankly, astonished at the question.

Israelis love slogans. Come up with the right slogan, even if it makes no sense, if it’s a total lie, and they will support anyone, and any cause. Sell them “Peace Now” wrapped up in little white doves, and they’ll vote for that. And if instead they get exploding buses and pizza parlors, dead babies on the streets, they won’t stop believing. They won’t look back and say: “Gee, those politicians were incompetent liars, let’s kick them out of office and keep them there. “ Not at all. Come up with another slogan and the exact same politicians will get their vote again.

Take Shimon Peres, architect of Oslo. author of the “The New Middle East” which has to go down in history with “Peace in Our Time” as the political blooper of the century. Peres has a new slogan: Kadima! Peres is now “in the center.”

Kadima is a great slogan. It’s the cry of a general leading men on a battlefield. Follow me, don’t look around at the fallen and dying all around you! Keep going. Don’t look back! Never mind that it was founded by a controversial general known for his impulsiveness and determination – qualities sometimes helpful on the battlefield, but quite disastrous matters of state. Never mind that his greatest accomplishment in office, carried out with bulldozer determination, has in record time already proven an unmitigated disaster: The disengagement was the Hamas’ successful campaign slogan:” Ten years of negotiation, five years of Intifada.” Never mind that daily rockets now land in the Negev and Ashkelon and Ashdod and Sderot. Never mind that for the first time in our history the national consensus towards Tzahal has begun to unravel. Never mind that. Kadima!

So the head of the party and its moving force is now incompacitated? Replace him! Never mind that Ehud Olmert was the worst Mayor Jerusalem ever had. A man whose coalition with the haredim turned the city into a filthy, poor backwater full of ugly high-rises. In between his own police investigations, Mr. Olmert has had a chance to totally change his political slogans with the times. He is a man who stands for nothing and has accomplished even less. But never mind that. Kadima!

Never mind that the Party has collected such Israeli political luminaries as Dalia Itzik, Haim Ramon, Ruhama Avraham, and Omri Sharon. Never mind that Tzachi Hanegbi now sits with them, and that Avi Dichter, a former head of intelligence, who said: "The numbers speak for themselves. . . it is clear that disengagement has decreased terror" is number five on their list. Never mind. Give them your vote. Kadima!

The Jews, the Bible tells us, are a stiff-necked people. As everyone knows, when you have a stiff-neck, you can’t turn around and look behind you. You have to face forward. Those voting Kadima can only do it if they stick with the slogans and don’t check them against reality. If you turn around and look at where the party came from and who is in it, you, like my friend in Herzylia, would be astonished. Why, you would ask yourself, would anyone vote for the biggest collection of losers in Israel’s political history all gathered in one spot?

Brothers and sisters, we have a very little country. We have made so many, many mistakes. Isn’t it time we stopped electing leaders who blindly put our women and children on the front lines against our enemies? Isn’t it time we stopped listening to our not very intelligent journalists and TV news people, clueless leftists all? Isn’t it time to look back before we jump over the cliff once more? Kadima is in the middle all right. In the middle of nowhere.

[sharonbn]

Isn’t it time we stopped electing leaders who blindly put our women and children on the front lines against our enemies?

indeed it is.
The leaders who put the settlers on the front lines against our enemies should be replaced ASAP.

[Leon]

If one were to apply your logic than the whole government and the entire State of Israel should be dismantled. After all, the entire country is one big settlement, with Tel Aviv being the biggest, no?

Once thats all gone and you vacate out of your home in the settlement of Tel Aviv and leave for France or Ice land, than there would finally be peace. Just ask your haverim at Ummah or the majority of the aggrieved and occuppied Palestinians, you extremist zio-nazi settler scum.

[sharonbn]

If one was to apply your logic than the whole French government and the entire State of France should be dismantled, following the withdrawal from Algeria, no?

The entire Israeli country is not "one big settlement". only avid rightists make direct comparison between proper Israel and occupied territories.

Tel Aviv was not founded on military occpied land.

[Leon]

Oh, here we go with the France/Algeria comparisons again. Despite all the sound arguments from various posters here countering your flawed comparison and putting it to rest, you still parrot it like an energizer bunny. It just never ends with people like you. Like talking to a brick wall really.

You don't do anyone justice, least of all to yourself, by comparing the situation to Algeria and other "colonial conquests." Thats historical revisionism at its very best.

For a start, the Algerians never claimed France proper for themselves - destroying the French republic and replacing it with their own state.
The Palestinians on the other hand, (even the so called "moderates" who demand a "right of return") see all of Israel as occuppied territory and make no distinction between the settlement of Tel Aviv and the settlement of Newe Deqalim.

The entire Israeli country is not "one big settlement". only avid rightists make direct comparison between proper Israel and occupied territories.

And concidentally the Palestinian government who were recently voted in by a majority of Palestinians who supported the above platform of making no distincitons. At the end of the day - if you want peace - their oppimion of making no distinctions is what really matters. Vacating & withdrawing from "parts of the land of Israel," (and then burying your head in the sand, hoping it will bring peace) will only further justify their delusional grievance that the entire land (with Haifa and Tel Aviv) is allegedly occuppied. And thats exactly what they did when they overwhelmingly voted for Hamas.

Anyway, I hear Alaska has some pretty nice fishing...

[Overload]

indeed it is.
The leaders who put the settlers on the front lines against our enemies should be replaced ASAP.

You do know you are talking about every government and every person in government since 1967, right?

I guess you like slogans too. KADIMA!

[mbczion]

Actually Yafo was "annexed" by Tel-Aviv and NOT too many of the Arabs living in Yafo are happy about that. Tell them that Tel-Aviv was not built on "occupied territory". I dare say they would disagree.

[sharonbn]

You do know you are talking about every government and every person in government since 1967, right?

I guess you like slogans too. KADIMA!

While we delve into history, I am talking about governments from 1974 (first settlement, sebastia) up to, and excluding the 2003 one.

[sharonbn]

Actually Yafo was "annexed" by Tel-Aviv and NOT too many of the Arabs living in Yafo are happy about that. Tell them that Tel-Aviv was not built on "occupied territory". I dare say they would disagree.

Yes, that is true. but the small difference is that Yaffo is still populated by Arabs. its not an Israeli colony erected on ruins of an abandoned Arab village, where its residents now live in a refugee camp somewhere in Lebanon.

[mbczion]

Bethlehem and Ramala are "abandoned"? And Jenine, Nabulus, Beit Jala, etc. also "abandoned"? Efrat, for example, is NOT built on an abandoned Arab village, but next to Bethlehem, which hardly seems impoverished to me....

[Leon]

Kadima!

The whole country must be run by a bunch of marketing and PR execs.