A Report On Nazism in the New Age Movement

[redcake]

use of the phrase old time religion to describe traditional Judaism.
giving G-d a gender designation, as a male.
denying the judaic connections in inspiring modern civil rights.
describing Torah content as the source of Jewish disinterest, saying Jews dislike self criticism.....

dorothy, it's these types of blunders that make you suspect, coloring your accusations towards Jews as an outsider, with outsider beliefs. your disdain for the jewish community, and even mainstream jewish beliefs never read like a self condemnation, self criticism, at all.

[bararallu]

Thats just Germany, and in Bavaria? How about in France? In Poland? In Hungary? In Greece? In Croatia? In Romania? In Slovakia? In the Ukraine? In the Baltics? I think you are focusing on Germany, and on Churches. The Clergy was what .00001% of the population everywhere? I'm talking about Church attending people, most of whom had some blood on their hands. It's partially understandable if someone put a gun to their heads, but that wasnt the case mostly. Not by a long shot.

I dont mean to condemn whole swaths of people, they have done it on their own. As far as WW2 papers are concerned I've seen a few in College doing a paper on the NYT. They are not much better than the MSM today, just with a different set of sensibilities. No one cared about the Jews. Not the Church, not the people.

The J-f-J are an annoyance. They are not a problem for us generally. Eventually they will declare that all humans are Jews and go on their merry way trying to convert Aborigines and Pygmies. Not that thats fine, but at least we'll get them of our backs.

[savvy]

The Spanish Inquisition

This section is based on excerpts from the paper: The Real Inquisition, Investigating the popular myth by professor Thomas F. Madden with footnotes by Fr. Lindsay Harrison.

By the mid 16th century, Spain was the wealthiest and most powerful country in Europe. Europe's Protestant areas, including the Netherlands, northern Germany, and England, may not have been as militarily mighty, but they did have a potent new weapon: the printing press. Although the Spanish defeated Protestants on the battlefield, they would lose the propaganda war. These were the years when the famous "Black Legend" of Spain was forged. The "The Black Legend," did not arise until after the Protestant defeat at the Battle of Muhlberg at the hands of Ferdinand's grandson, the Emperor Charles V. A fierce propaganda campaign ensued. Two important Protestant publications in it were John Foxe's Book of Martyrs (1554) and a leaflet published in 1567 penned by a supposed Inquisition victim named Montanus. He painted Catholic Spaniards as barbarians who ravished women and sodomized young boys. The propagandists soon created "hooded fiends" who tortured their victims in horrible devices like the knife-filled Iron Maiden. The number of victims was exaggerated. Foxe claimed 32,000 were burned at the stake. The myth became the accepted stereotype, as seen in Dostoyevsky's Grand Inquisitor in The Brothers Karamazov and in Edgar Allan Poe's tale of The Pit and the Pendulum. Innumerable books and pamphlets poured from northern presses accusing the Spanish Empire of inhuman depravity and horrible atrocities in the New World. Opulent Spain was cast as a place of darkness, ignorance, and evil.

Protestant tracts that took aim at the Spanish Inquisition drew liberally from the Black Legend. But it had other sources as well. From the beginning of the Reformation, Protestants had difficulty explaining the 15-century gap between Christ's institution of His Church and the founding of the Protestant churches. Catholics pointed out this problem, accusing Protestants of having created a new church separate from that of Christ. Protestants countered that their church was the one created by Christ, but that it had been forced underground by the Catholic Church. Thus, just as the Roman Empire had persecuted Christians, so its successor, the Roman Catholic Church, continued to persecute them throughout the Middle Ages. Inconveniently, there were no Protestants in the Middle Ages, yet Protestant authors found them there anyway in the guise of various medieval heretics. In this light, the medieval Inquisition was nothing more than an attempt to crush the hidden, true church. The Spanish Inquisition, still active and extremely efficient at keeping Protestants out of Spain, was for Protestant writers merely the latest version of this persecution. Mix liberally with the Black Legend and you have everything you need to produce tract after tract about the hideous and cruel Spanish Inquisition. And so they did.

In time, Spain's empire would fade away. Wealth and power shifted to the north, in particular to France and England. By the late 17th century new ideas of religious tolerance were bubbling across the coffeehouses and salons of Europe. Inquisitions, both Catholic and Protestant, withered. The Spanish stubbornly held on to theirs, and for that they were ridiculed. French philosophers like Voltaire saw in Spain a model of the Middle Ages: weak, barbaric, superstitious. The Spanish Inquisition, already established as a bloodthirsty tool of religious persecution, was derided by Enlightenment thinkers as a brutal weapon of intolerance and ignorance. A new, fictional Spanish Inquisition had been constructed, designed by the enemies of Spain and the Catholic Church.



How many people were killed in the Inquisition?

There were two major Inquisitions, the Medieval Inquisition and Spanish Inquisition. Although there are no exact numbers, scholars believe they have estimated Inquisition deaths reasonably accurately. There were not as many deaths as the popular press claims. Numbers have often been inflated to as high as 9 million by the popular press, with absolutely no scholarly research. This figure is completely erroneous. A broad range of scholars, many of whom were not Catholic, have carefully studied the Inquisitions. They looked at all the existing records and were able to extrapolate. In the Medieval Inquisition, Bernard Gui was one of the most notorious of the medieval inquisitors. (so much so that the sick modern pornography industry has turned him into a hero). He tried 930 people out of which 42 were executed (4.5%). Another famous Inquisitor was Jacques Fournier who tried 114 cases of which 5 were executed (4.3%). Using numbers that are known, scholars have been able to surmise that approximately 2,000 people died in the Medieval Inquisition. (1231-1400 AD)

According to public news reports the book's editor, Prof. Agostino Borromeo, stated that about 125,000 persons were investigated by the Spanish Inquisition, of which 1.8% were executed (2,250 people). Most of these deaths occurred in the first decade and a half of the Inquisition's 350 year history. In Portugal of the 13,000 tried in the 16th and early 17th century 5.7% were said to have been condemned to death. News articles did not report if Portugal's higher percentage included those sentenced to death in effigy (i.e. an image burnt instead of the actual person). For example, historian Gustav Henningsen reported that statistical tabulations of 50,000 recorded cases tried by nineteen Spanish tribunals between 1540-1700 found 775 people (1.7%) were actually executed while another 700 (1.4%) were sentenced to death in effigy ("El 'banco de datos' del Santo Oficio: Las relaciones de causas de la Inquisición española, 1550-1700", BRAH, 174, 1977). Jewish historian Steven Katz remarked on the Medieval Inquisition that "in its entirety, the thirteenth and fourteenth century Inquisition put very few people to death and sent few people to prison; 90 percent of its sentences were canonical penances" (The Holocaust in Historical Context, 1994).

During the high point of the Spanish Inquisition from 1478-1530 AD, scholars found that approximately 1,500-2,000 people were found guilty. From that point forward, there are exact records available of all "guilty" sentences which amounted to 775 executions. In the full 200 years of the Spanish Inquisition, less than 1% of the population had any contact with it, people outside of the major cities didn't even know about it. The Inquisition was not applied to Jews or Moslems, unless they were baptised as Christians.

Nevertheless, the Inquisition tortures and death were inexcusable. I echo the voice of John Paul II "Forgive us Lord, Never Again"

[savvy]

Thats just Germany, and in Bavaria? How about in France? In Poland? In Hungary? In Greece? In Croatia? In Romania? In Slovakia? In the Ukraine? In the Baltics? I think you are focusing on Germany, and on Churches. The Clergy was what .00001% of the population everywhere? I'm talking about Church attending people, most of whom had some blood on their hands. It's partially understandable if someone put a gun to their heads, but that wasnt the case mostly. Not by a long shot.

There are WW2 newspapers, besides the NYT. Yes, there was a Nazi state church, an apostate Protestant church with NA ideas. This was the purpose of this thread, the NA is once again getting it's hands on these churches, and when they're done God help us all. Alfred Rosenberg's Book "The Myth of the 20th century", was all about this new version of Christianity that would finally do what Luther failed to do. Ever read the book.?

[bararallu]

Originally Posted by savvy

There are WW2 newspapers, besides the NYT. Yes, there was a Nazi state church, an apostate Protestant church with NA ideas. This was the purpose of this thread, the NA is once again getting it's hands on these churches, and when they're done God help us all. Alfred Rosenberg's Book "The Myth of the 20th century", was all about this new version of Christianity that would finally do what Luther failed to do. Ever read the book.?

No, but I'll put it on my reading list, looks interesting.

As far as info regarding the Inquisition, much of my information is from Jewish sources or fully academic treatments, not selective Protestant ones. Which facts do you disagree with?

That the Jews were converted under duress in Spain? And the ones that would not convert (the majority) were expelled? That the Jews of Portugal weren't even given that choice? That the Inquisition then set to work on the "New Christians" in the unified kingdom? That Jewish property wasn't nationalized and seized? That whole synagogues weren't confiscated along with our Torah Scrolls by the Church and the State? That Jews who were Christians only in name weren't abducted, tortured and killed? I'm still at a loss where you think these so called Judaizers appeared from? If they weren't actual Jews how did they come to learn Jewish practices. Proselytism by Jews (and marriage to Catholics) was a capital offense in most of the Holy Roman Empire and certainly the Iberian Peninsula. No Jew attempted such things since the 10th century at the latest, and never programatically- only when people came to them, mostly 'pagans'.

[Dorothy]

redcake, yes, I used the phrase "old time religion" as a contrast to the trendy new one being promoted these days. The old one isn't good enough for too many Jews. You can be offended by what you like, but I'm more offended by New Age Judaism. Look it up.

God referred to in masculine terms in Judaism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_of_God_in_Judaism
I'm not trendy enough to call God "it."
You really should study Judaism.

I'll stick by the fact that Jews as a community do not do self-criticism. There are squabbles between the different branches, but anything negative is hushed up with the belief that we shouldn't give the antisemitic enemy any material to work with. Even here you've been trying to hush me, make me go away, not with any refutation of the facts I've presented. You've used every dirty tactic in the book, and yet no one here wants to criticize you, another Jew. It doesn't make readers here immoral, just scared to take a stand. The community is warm and cozy and great at patting each other on the back, and being outside of it is so cold.

Will it make you happy if I do a piece on the good parts of the Jewish community as I've seen it over the years? I can do that but it will have nothing to do with the New Age movement which will destroy it. You see, I care about the Jewish community.

Writing G-d as if you are religious while lying and manipulating makes you a hypocrite.

[Dorothy]

bararallu, does getting Jews to convert to another religion count if it was being done by another group of Jews? If so, you'll have to move your timetable to 1648, the time of Shabbetai Tzvi.
http://www.ajlmagazine.com/content/012007/heretic.html
Why did one-third of the European Jewish population convert then?

By today's standards what happened to the Jewish community at the time of the Inquisition was very ugly. During those years the Catholic church was more a political entity than a religious one. Human nature hasn't changed and today we do nothing even though ugly things have happened and are happening both on large and small scales. For how long should the Jewish community be held responsible for what Madoff did to non-Jews? No one living now was responsible for the Inquisition, so what is the point of it being an emotional issue rather than an academic one? All it results in is everybody's defenses going up and the charges start filling the air.

[bararallu]

1/3 of European Jews converted when? During the Khmelnitsky masacres? At the hands of Shabatai Zvi? The former is what caused the biggest liquidation of European Jewry since the Crusades, when Jewish villages or Ghettos where massacred from France to Greece. The latter happened in the Pale of Settlement. Some few Ashkenazim fled to the Ottoman Empire during the time. No where did a 3rd convert though. A solid 4th of Ashkenaz may have been slaughtered by the Poles and Ukrainians/Cossaki.

Further, Zvi did not at first declare himself to be the Mashiach, when he attracted many of his faithful admirers and followers. Many of whom may have been refugee Ashkenazim, who where not nearly as learned at the time as some of the well educated Academy buchers both in Lithuania and in the Ottoman Empire.

He was however eventually banished (official cherem) by the Sephardi establishment in Constantinople and greater Ottoman lands. The Ottomans then took the matters in hand and forcefully converted him and his stalwart supporters which, IIRC from readings 15 years ago, were few and far between compared to his initial climb to fame as a Rabbi.

There was for sure a cult of personality going on with Zvi, less so with other comparable personalities like R. Luria and R. Luzzatto, before and after him. Zvi was a failed liberator. Since first and foremost the Maschiach is a political office in Judaism- hence the swift and painful reaction of the Ottomans. That said, there was less innovation in his position than say there is between the Conservative and Modern Orthodox movements today... just to keep things apples to apples. He was a classic Kabbalah inspired Rav, orthodox Jewish by all accounts. His claim to be the Maschiach did not change much. We consider the Karaites to be Jews do we not? They are much further from the pale than the Zvi followers from any mean position of Jewish Halacha and minhog at the time.

[redcake]

It doesn't offend me that YOU are using a phrase most associated with "the gospel" and southern Pentecost - it's just funny!

Then you link to a Wiki that agrees with me. There's no gender assignment to G-d in Judaism. The words are gender neutral.

Dorothy said:

I'll stick by the fact that Jews as a community do not do self-criticism. There are squabbles between the different branches, but anything negative is hushed up with the belief that we shouldn't give the antisemitic enemy any material to work with.

For how long should the Jewish community be held responsible for what Madoff did to non-Jews?

Well that's not Judeophobic and hateful now is it?

Why would anyone here defend you when you make statements like that?

[dayag]

Originally Posted by Dorothy

Dayag, I've always said the New Age movement is a resurgence of Nazism, and here I have an interesting piece of proof. The local Gestapo here is so threatened by what I'm saying that they've done a deep search of my past to find out how Jewish I am. And the search is so deep you've found out who I was as a child and where I went to grammar school and published it. Was that supposed to be a warning to back off dayag? If so, it isn't going to work. You should be ashamed of yourself. I'm a convert. Do I get to wear the yellow star. I would be proud to do so.

What you have done should scare the hell out of anyone. A core belief of the New Age movement is that which causes separation is evil. Here I am exposing the Nazi philosophy and so am considered evil by someone, just as in Nazi Germany.

Yes, I was born into the Polish Catholic community and went to St. Maurice. I am not responsible for the community I was born into. I started questioning Catholicism in the early grades. Maybe it was because in those days the Catholic church took religion much more seriously than it does now. In addition it took religion much more seriously than any of the Conservative, Reform, and Traditional Jewish religious schools I sent my sons to over the years. At St. Maurice there was a respect for the laws of God, respect for the traditions, and even in grammar school serious discussions about the values involved. There was Bible study. The part about Jesus never did fit in with the rest of what I was taught which is why I continued searching for more information about religion. When I found Judaism in Jewish books many, many years later, I knew where my home was.

Since Vatican II, much of the Catholic community is like the Conservative and Reform Jewish communities. Show up twice a year at a church or synagogue and bond over the joy of belonging to a community where one is welcomed. Jewish geography substitutes for Torah. Both groups are being slowly moved into the New Age community. Some individuals in both communities have reached their heartland much earlier than others. Here I come along and try to warn, a troublemaker, who must be stopped.

Well dear readers, you have been warned what will happen if you try to boycott the plans they have for you. Just remember the New Age movement is antisemitic down to its it's malformed toes. You will be used in the same way Jews are put at the top of Obama's operation. Then you will be dispensed with when you are no longer useful. Based on what I know, even if you try to leave your affiliation with Judaism behind, it won't be a help. Do wake up. Time is much shorter than you think it is.

There's no Gestapo, Dorothy, only Google. You posted an article about redcake under your real name and I am just very nosy.

It was not a warning, nor a threat. You will notice that I did not name you as that Polish Catholic girl in my post, nor have I cited your real name, etc. I was just trying to give you a subtle reminder of your own past since you are trying to spread hatred towards "idolators". If you had said nothing, then no one else would have been the wiser.

[Dorothy]

bararallu

from the article I linked to:
"Within twelve months, Shabbetai Tzvi counted among his followers more than one third of the European Jewish community. People left their homes, sold their belongings, and awaited the reconquest of Israel. Entire communities were overturned, with Shabbatean leaders replacing traditional ones. In fulfillment of Kabbalistic prophecies, fast days were turned to feast days, and certain ritual laws annulled. Indeed, not to believe in Shabbetai Tzvi was regarded, in many communities, as a lack of faith."

They certainly weren't practicing Judaism. They had taken on a new faith, call it cult if you will. I already posted information here on the Sabbatians and their continued existence to this day. I'm sure you are very knowledgeable about the Sabbatian movement, and if you want to put them and their actions into the Jewish fold, I would disagree with you. They overturned everything Judaism stands for.

[Dorothy]

dayag, I've searched my name quite a few times on the internet and information going back that many decades doesn't show up. Is there anything else about me that redcake gathered that you are willing to share publicly? Just curiosity? Sorry I don't believe you. What article did I post about redcake under my real name? It's pretty clear redcake was trying to dig up some dirt and he couldn't find any. Don't do him any more favors. You and I may disagree and not see the same things happening, but you've always been civil.

[dayag]

Originally Posted by Dorothy

dayag, I've searched my name quite a few times on the internet and information going back that many decades doesn't show up. Is there anything else about me that redcake gathered that you are willing to share publicly? Just curiosity? Sorry I don't believe you. What article did I post about redcake under my real name? It's pretty clear redcake was trying to dig up some dirt and he couldn't find any. Don't do him any more favors. You and I may disagree and not see the same things happening, but you've always been civil.

Dorothy,
I will send you the links to the websites I found in a private message to protect your privacy.

[bararallu]

Originally Posted by Dorothy

bararallu

from the article I linked to:
"Within twelve months, Shabbetai Tzvi counted among his followers more than one third of the European Jewish community. People left their homes, sold their belongings, and awaited the reconquest of Israel. Entire communities were overturned, with Shabbatean leaders replacing traditional ones. In fulfillment of Kabbalistic prophecies, fast days were turned to feast days, and certain ritual laws annulled. Indeed, not to believe in Shabbetai Tzvi was regarded, in many communities, as a lack of faith."

You can reasonably say the same thing about a number of Hassidic houses that up and left Europe for NY or elsewhere. Rav ben Eliezer, furthermore, made a massive break with the "misnagim", aka the Gaonut of Vilna. That break was much more a significant than what Zvi made in the tradition of his day/place. The founders of the German Reform Movement went even further, as did Kaplans Reconstructionists. But why go forward in time? We still consider the Karaites as Jews, in many ways the Samaritans can be considered Jews... albeit "mamzers". The former can even be counted in a minion I've heard. As for political pretense, Bar Kokhba claimed as much as Zvi and succeeded for a time.

If he could have held off the Romans another few years, who knows if there would be a Rabbinical movement altogether.

They certainly weren't practicing Judaism. They had taken on a new faith, call it cult if you will.

I think you should decide what the conditions for "creating a new sect" you'd like to specifically test for Dorothy and then we can look specifically if it has or has not been done before hand or afterwards. My gut feeling is that it has all been seen before, and we are still all Jews.

I already posted information here on the Sabbatians and their continued existence to this day.

There is a fundamental difference between what they are today (400 years after the fact or so, incorporating mystical Islam and a whole lot of non Jews into their fold) and what Zvi was doing during the height of his power. Which is as I say, wasnt much different than most others. Albeit I have a personal disdain for kabbalistic Judaism, most Jews dont seem to give two hens about the differences.

I'm sure you are very knowledgeable about the Sabbatian movement, and if you want to put them and their actions into the Jewish fold, I would disagree with you. They overturned everything Judaism stands for.

Wo there. First of all there are scholars who do Zvi, I'm not one of them. I just had a few courses on period Judaism. That said, he absolutely did not overturn 'everything' Judaism stands for... but again I invite you to delineate what you think Judaism stands for and juxtapose it to his teachings. Aside from the political component (=cult of personality) I really dont see much difference.

If anything I would say Kabbalistic Judaism is a significant departure from Talmudic Judaism. But I'm a minority in that.

[Dorothy]

Regarding redcake's inability to read, please read the Wikipedia article and don't just take his word for anything.

While there are people who do hold Madoff's connection to the Jewish community as a sign of the behavior of Jews, doing so is just wrong. Madoff and those who surrounded him were individuals. They did not speak for the Jewish community any more than redcake does. It is just as wrong to hold Catholics living now responsible for what was done in the past by some, but not all Catholics living at that time. redcake obviously does not know what an analogy is.

http://ejewishphilanthropy.com/berni...f-the-musical/
This was sent to me by a Jewish friend. He thought it was funny. Yale kids with probably too much money don't know how painful it is to lose so much money or not have a nest egg to depend on because they trusted someone. They thought they could afford to make fun of the situation. Read the comments. It should have been a "teaching moment" in the Jewish community, showing how the reputation of all Jews can be destroyed by the immoral behavior of just one person, etc. Yet I only read one article by a rabbi saying this.

Oh well, on to other things.

http://townhall.com/columnists/CarlH...aels_other_war

Israel's Other War - This column appeared on the Townhall email list.

It is a quite long ugly attack on ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel. It is my guess that it is a blow coming out of the UN's Alliance of Civilizations which is targeting religions across the world in a new New Age offensive. Looking at their website it appears they have organizations in place in almost all countries to start carrying out the journalistic attack.

Here are some paragraphs:
"Welcome to Israel’s “other” war. It’s really a civil war in nascent form, one that pits modernity against extreme tradition. The conflict hasn’t gotten too much attention here. Yet if fully realized, it may well prove that country’s undoing. And we throughout the free world will be poorer for it."

"Now some people might bristle over calling the rioters “theocrats.” But in fact that is exactly what they are. These people weren’t simply content to strictly observe the Sabbath; they felt compelled to terrorize people, including public officials, who don’t. Equally to the point, here are a few things the rioters and their supporters aren’t: capitalists, scientists, visionaries. If these people have anything to with the remarkable success that is the Israeli economy, it is almost purely coincidental."

"Modern Israelis have responded with appropriate disgust at such behavior. A number of years ago, renowned Israeli novelist Amos Oz referred to West Bank Orthodox Jewish settlers as a “messianic sect, closed and brutal, gangsters, criminals against humanity, sadists, pogromists and murderers that has risen from a dark corner of Jewry.” Moshe Zimmerman, a professor at Hebrew University, likened the settlers to the Hitler youth. In 2003, the late Israeli Justice Minister Tommy Lapid proposed shutting down the dozens of illegal pirate radio stations that served (i.e., inflamed) the Haredi community and interfered with air traffic control signals at Ben-Gurion International Airport. It isn’t just prominent Jews who harbor anger toward the extremists. Most Israelis long have resented the way that ultra-Orthodox have avoided military service by claiming religious education exemptions. Not are they enamored of the high rates of welfare dependency among the Haredi. If there are software or other economic innovators among the ultra-Orthodox, they must be hiding."

I posted a response:
No New Age propaganda for us
My oh my, September isn't over and the Alliance of Civilizations starts its attack on religion through its journalist cadre. Is this the opening blow against Judaism? How soon will there be a parallel one on fundamentalist Christianity? It certainly pulled the Jew haters out of the closet.

What can we take from this article? That Jews who are not part of the thinking of the majority masses are dangerous. That people who live their religion hold back progress. That religion is not to interfere with material progress. That religious people are really very primitive, very bad, immoral people. All of this with no evidence, just speculation getting a lot of publicity.

Carl Horowitz, we recognize propaganda when we see it. Jews have suffered from propaganda attacks, and to use a statement that is getting popular WE'RE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANY MORE!!!