Terrorism, brutality, polygamy: why it's so easy to "hijack" Islam, the so-called "re

What Went Wrong? : The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East -- by Bernard Lewis

What Went Wrong: Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response -- by Bernard Lewis

The Crisis of Islam: Holy War and Unholy Terror -- by Bernard Lewis

Some pretty good book reviews

1) ”What Went Wrong? : The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East” – book review

For many centuries, the Islamic world was at the forefront of human civilization, one of the greatest powers on earth. He provides an exciting and detailed demonstration of Islamic military strength, economic achievement, and advancement in the arts and sciences. Lewis leaves little doubt that between the decline of antiquity and the dawn of modernity, Islamic culture reigned supreme.

However, Lewis continues by showing that since the beginning of the modern era, the once-spectacular Islamic civilization has become weak, poor and ignorant. What went wrong? Bernard Lewis acutely examines several critical societal aspects, including social barriers, concepts of time and space, militarization, modernization, and cultural change, as he traces the rise and fall of Islam’s leaders in an effort to determine what actually occured in the Middle East.

http://www.yaleisraeljournal.com/spr...wentwrong.html

2) Islam's Wrong Turns. – "What Went Wrong? Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response" - book review

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...54/ai_82757196

3) ”The Crisis of Islam: Holy War and Unholy Terror” - book review

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/...ws/wilken.html

quote:
[.. The “crisis” of which Lewis speaks is a crisis in the Arab world. ..]

[Ray]

but in my opinion, posts like the above give israel forums and jewish forums a bad name, it breeds only bad feelings.

i'm even interested in reading the book to see what it has to say, but please, if you're recommending a book which is so anti-someone else's religeon, a religeon which for better or for worse has certainly earned itself a place into human civilization, why not give a warningor something that some may find it offensive or something?

To be a bigot is an end of education and openess in thought.

To advocate that one should not read a book because one must have mental peace at all costs, is to put a veil over the brain. Sort of putting one mind on Polar ice or prefering to hibernate in a timewrap!

It is an illiterates way of adopting escapism for the fear of the unknown "truth".

And yet at the same time, if one reads even books which are factually spun, it at least allows the mind to discern the chaff from the wheat!

Therefore, the choice is between being an educated illiterate and being a educated emancipated!

[andak01]

Originally Posted by Ray

To be a bigot is an end of education and openess in thought.

To advocate that one should not read a book because one must have mental peace at all costs, is to put a veil over the brain. Sort of putting one mind on Polar ice or prefering to hibernate in a timewrap!

It is an illiterates way of adopting escapism for the fear of the unknown "truth".

And yet at the same time, if one reads even books which are factually spun, it at least allows the mind to discern the chaff from the wheat!

Therefore, the choice is between being an educated illiterate and being a educated emancipated!

I agree. So don't stop your Islamic education with Bernard Lewis. I'd suggest that just occasionally Muslims know as much about Islam as non-Muslims. Moreover, not every non-Muslim is an Islam basher. Karen Hughes for example wrote a beautiful life of Prophet Muhammed that I often recommend as well as several other books on Islam. John Esposito is another incredible scholar. Bilal Philips is a Muslim convert from Jamaica that lectures in Arabic throughout the Arab world. His books are a brilliant introduction to Islam.

[Ray]

One flew over the Cuckoo's Nest!

I sure don't want to fly over any nest.

Who is advocating that read only on Islam bashing?

Islam loving too is necessary for an overall education.

Then sift the wheat from the chaff is all that one must do.

[Achihud]

...

[andak01]

Originally Posted by Leon Uris
About the Koran's violent verses - The Koran was written in two major stages. These have been integrated and arranged by chapter length as opposed to the chronological order in which they were initially written.

Pardon me, but that's just crud. The arrangement has to do with the order in which Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was observed to have recited them on the occasions towards the end of his life when he did recite the entire Quran.

If you still believe that they were arranged according to length, go count the lengths.

Surah 1 - 7 verses
Surah 2 - 286 verses
Surah 3 - 200 verses
Surah 4 - 176 verses
Surah 5 - 120 verses
Surah 6 - 165 verses
Surah 7 - 206 verses
Surah 8 - 75 verses
Surah 9 - 129 verses
Surah 10 - 109 verses
etc.

I do hope you aren't working as a clerk. Your sorting is dreadful.

[Achihud]

Still better then being naive when it comes to the Mecca-clinchers!

Anybody who says this


"Actually the flow was from east Europe to the west---the Khazarian Jews drifted into Ukraine, Russia and Poland and eventually began to dominate in Western Europe until the guy with the funny mustache decided he had had enough of the Jewish domination and humiliation of the German people."

Forfiets his/her right to be heard on any issue. Yes he/she has the right to say it, but nobody should listen.

Hey Leon Uris,

I've been reading your posts from the earlier page and wonder why you don't just write a book, you could call it "the Poisonous Mushroom" for children so that they can pick out 'evil' muslims' in society?

I wonder. How much energy does it take to make up all the lies against the Jews. I have yet to see Muslims or Palestinians be marginalized in the world like Jews and Christians have. If you, TheAZCowboy, are a racist, why do you side with the Arabs? Aren't they not white? Don't they represent a group that is "less than human" to you? You (TheAZCowboy), speak as though you envy the Germans during the holocaust. You sound as though you wish you were there, as an active participant. What am I saying...TheAZCowboy, you probably deny that it ever happened.

Now, supposing that you are a Christian, do you not listen to Jesus at His word when he said, "...salvation is of the Jews." - John 4:22.

Why do you hate and persecute so, TheAZCowboy?

Dear Simon,

I also

highly recommend this book for the jewish readers of this forum.

Its called the Talmud....you may have heard of it. Instead of bashing other religions and being a hipocrite follower of th Jewish faith by practicing hatred look at your own scripture. Perhaps then you would refrain from looking like an ignorant, nazi idiot. After all....didn't Hitler preach hatred for a who religion of people??? I could be wrong.

OK to Have Sex With a Child:
Sanhedrin 54b. A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.

Adults Allowed to Have Sex with Little Girls:
Kethuboth 11b. When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing.

Jews Allowed to Marry 3-year old Girls:
Sanhedrin 55b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).

OK for Jews to Have Sex with 3-year old Child:
Babylonian Talmud States:
"Rabbi Joseph said, 'Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.' Mishnah: A girl of the age of 3 years and a day may be betrothed, subject to her father's approval, by sexual intercourse. ...Gemara: Our Rabbis taught: 'A girl of the age of 3 years may be betrothed by sexual intercourse.' "

Attitude Towards Non-Jewish Children:
Yebamoth 98a. All Gentile (Non-Jewish) children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile (Non-Jewish) girls are in a state of filth (niddah) from birth.

Non-Jews are Not Human:
Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human.
Schene luchoth haberuth, p 250b. Although the non-Jew has the same body structure as the Jew, they compare with the Jew as a monkey to a human.
Baba Mezia, 114b (page referrals). The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts.

Honoring Dogs More Than Non-Jews:
Ereget Raschi Erod, 22 30. The Akum is like a dog. Yes, the scripture says to honor the dog more than the Non-Jew.

Segregation of Women (and Dogs):
Pesahim 111a (p. 571). It is forbidden for dogs, women or palm trees to pass between two men, nor may others walk between dogs, women or palm trees. Special dangers are involved if the women are menstruating or sitting at a crossroads.

It's OK to Kill & Steal from Non-Jews:
Sanhedrin 57a. When a Jew murders a Gentile (Non-Jew), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a Gentile he may keep.

It's OK for Jews to Lie to Non-Jews:
Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies (subterfuges) to circumvent a Gentile (Non-Jew).

Destroying Christian Books:
Shabbath 116a (p. 569). Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament.

Jesus' Mother Mary was a Whore:
Sanhedrin 106a. Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother had sex with many men.

Treatment of Pregnant Non-Jews:
Coschen Hamischpat 405. A pregnant non-Jew is no better than a pregnant animal.

Non-Jews are Disgusting:
Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b. If you eat with a non-Jew it is the same as eating with a dog.

Toilet Dust and Honey for Health:
Gittin 69a. To heal his flesh a Jew should take dust that lies within the shadow of an outdoor toilet, mix it with honey and eat it.

Eating Dog's Excrement Mixed with Balsam:
Gittin 69b (p. 329). To heal the disease of pleurisy ("catarrh") a Jew should "take the excrement of a white dog and knead it with balsam, but if he can possibly avoid it he should not eat the dog's excrement as it loosens the limbs."

It's OK Not to Pay Owed Wages to Non-Jews:
Sanhedrin 57a. A Jew need not pay a Gentile (Non-Jew) the wages owed him for work.

It's OK for Jews to do Evil:
Moed Kattan 17a. If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.

Hitting a Jew or Hitting a God:
Sanhedrin 58b. If a Gentile (Non-Jew) hits a Jew, the Gentile must be killed. Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God.

No Need to Return Lost Objects to Non-Jews:
Baba Mezia 24a. If a Jew finds an object lost by a Gentile (Non-Jew) it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b).

It's OK to Kill Non-Jews:
Sepher Ikkarim III c 25. It is permited to take the body and life of a Gentile (Non-Jew).
Coschen Hamischpat, Hagah 425. It is the law to kill anyone who denies the Torah. The Christians belong to the denying ones of the Torah.
Bammidber raba c 21 & jalkut 772. Every Jew who spills the blood of the godless (non-Jews), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God.

Soferim 15, Rule 10. This is the saying of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai: Tob shebe goyyim harog. Translation: Even the best of the Gentiles (Non-Jews) should all be killed. <------ This passage is from the original Hebrew of the Babylonian Talmud as quoted by the 1907 Jewish Encyclopedia, published by Funk and Wagnalls and compiled by Isidore Singer, under the entry, "Gentile," (p. 617). This original Talmud passage has been concealed in translation. The Jewish Encyclopedia states that, "...in the various versions the reading has been altered, 'The best among the Egyptians' being generally substituted." In the Soncino version: "the best of the heathens" (Minor Tractates, Soferim 41a-b]. Israelis annually take part in a national pilgrimage to the grave of Simon ben Yohai, to honor this rabbi who advocated the extermination of non-Jews. (Jewish Press of June 9, 1989, p. 56B). On Purim, Feb. 25, 1994, Israeli army officer Baruch Goldstein, an orthodox Khazar from Brooklyn, massacred 40 Palestinian civilians, including children, while they knelt in prayer in a mosque. Goldstein was a disciple of the late Rabbi Kahane who has stated that his view of Arabs as "dogs" is "from the Talmud." (Cf. CBS 60 Minutes, "Kahane"). University of Jerusalem Prof. Ehud Sprinzak described Kahane and Goldstein's philosophy: "They believe it's God's will that they commit violence against 'goyim,' a Hebrew term for non-Jews." (NY Daily News, Feb. 26, 1994, p. 5). Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg declared, "We have to recognize that Jewish blood and the blood of a goy are not the same thing." (NY Times, June 6, 1989, p.5). Rabbi Yaacov Perrin says, "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." (NY Daily News, Feb. 28, 1994, p.6).

It is lawful for a girl three years old to have sexual intercourse (Abodah Zarah, 37a; Kethuboth, 11b,39a; Sanhedrin, 55b,69a,b; Yebamoth, 12a,57b,58a,60b).

When a man commits sodomy with a boy under nine years of age, it "is not deemed as pederasty" (Sanhedrin, 54b,55a).

Sexual intercourse with a boy under the age of eight is lawful since it isn't fornication (Sanhedrin, 69b).
The birth of a girl is an unhappy event (Baba Bathra, 16b).
All women are "temperamentally light-headed" (Kiddushin, 80b).

It is okay to divorce your wife if she spoils your food, or if you find a more beautiful woman (Gittin, 91a).
Since all Gentiles are only animals, all Gentile children are bastards (Yebamoth, 98a).




Think about those before you attempt to defame and be anti-semetic against Arabs and Muslims....YES "anti-semetic" the term means to discriminate against any peoples of the semetic languages ie. Hebrew, Arabic, Ethiopian, North African

************************************************** ********All verses came from http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/index.html an accurate version of the Seders.

[Mediocrates]

Yes? And? Is Talmud law or is Talmud discussions on Law? You raised the issue. I mean of you're going to cut a few hundred words out of 60 volumes of text in 3 different languages, 2 of which are dead, comprising several million words I'd like to know your opinion on whether Gemarah is Law or commentary?

Also please show me the contextual discussions of the translation from Aramaic to English. As far as I know Aramaic has a vocabulary of about 5000 words vs 100x that for English.

I've seen these exact sections culled before from the same old people ranting the same old things. It's amazing how haters all seem to be able to distill 60 volumes of text down to the same dozen excerpts at the drop of a hat? What is it? You guys have a listserv?

[scattergood]

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/8815/exp.html

This link has a pretty comprehensive list of responses to the cut and paste trash the troll has provided.

[Talitha]

Originally Posted by andak01

I agree. So don't stop your Islamic education with Bernard Lewis. I'd suggest that just occasionally Muslims know as much about Islam as non-Muslims. Moreover, not every non-Muslim is an Islam basher. Karen Hughes for example wrote a beautiful life of Prophet Muhammed that I often recommend as well as several other books on Islam. John Esposito is another incredible scholar. Bilal Philips is a Muslim convert from Jamaica that lectures in Arabic throughout the Arab world. His books are a brilliant introduction to Islam.

John Esposito, Karen Hughes and Bilal Philips are Muslim apologistic propagandists. The first two are bought by Moslems, the latter one is a Jihadist.