Do you support continuing the War in Afghanistan?

[Yala]

Why or why not?

[maven]

To be frank Yala I want us out of there. I was one of those who was all for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan and I had all the hope and optimism expressed by so many of the US troops in interviews to newschannels. But I now see that the people of those countries simply do not have the same political values as us and trying to bring them democracy is like pouring money down a well.

A culture based on revenge, sectarianism and tribal loyalties and people who vote as their religious or tribal masters instruct them, does not seem to be a hopeful place to try and create a united society with equality for women and minorities.

There may be a possibility of Iraq achieving some success, I hope so, but if in the end it is an enemy of Israel then what was the point of the whole excercise?

I feel now that it was not worth the lives of our troops and I hope I am wrong.

We can't afford to keep trying to teach these people lessons they just don't want to learn or simply cannot culturally absorb at the cost of billions while we are ourselves in need.

[Justcurious]

Does anyone support a war? There are other reasons, too.

[wat0n]

I think that the main reason for staying in Afghanistan would be to prevent further unstability in Pakistan, but maybe (I don't know) the US should leave Afghanistan mostly because the US will have to pay the debt that the crisis has left, and spending money on Afghanistan would make it harder, assuming the Pakistanis would and can drive the Taliban out of their country.

In a nutshell, I don't really care about Afghanistan (in the end it's their duty to build their country and it's their problem if they want to live in a 8th century theocracy or not, or if they even want to remain as a country or they'd rather separate into a lot of small states or whatever), but I do care about nuclear Pakistan. With emphasis on nuclear.

[I am David 2]

Don't know. Can we win with the present troop count? Unlikely. However, a complete reversal to Taliban control could be disastrous, so at the very least, we should ensure that there is a central government with significant military control of the country, even if they lack total control. This could help prevent the creation of a complete safe haven for Al-Qaeda like it was before.

"Winning" in Afghanistan, meaning stabilizing and centralizing the country, so the Taliban has no significant presence, I think is impossible without many more troops (~300k) and funding, or a completely different grass roots oriented strategy. Neither of which will happen.

[Yala]

Originally Posted by maven

To be frank Yala I want us out of there. I was one of those who was all for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan and I had all the hope and optimism expressed by so many of the US troops in interviews to newschannels. But I now see that the people of those countries simply do not have the same political values as us and trying to bring them democracy is like pouring money down a well.

A culture based on revenge, sectarianism and tribal loyalties and people who vote as their religious or tribal masters instruct them, does not seem to be a hopeful place to try and create a united society with equality for women and minorities.

There may be a possibility of Iraq achieving some success, I hope so, but if in the end it is an enemy of Israel then what was the point of the whole excercise?

I feel now that it was not worth the lives of our troops and I hope I am wrong.

We can't afford to keep trying to teach these people lessons they just don't want to learn or simply cannot culturally absorb at the cost of billions while we are ourselves in need.

Honestly, I feel the exact same way and I mean EXACT. I also supported both wars in the beginning. But the way they were handled was a mess. Iraq needed/needs a strong man. A counter to Iran was/is needed. A broader coalition should've taken down Saddam and installed someone. Building the country from the bottom up was a waste. Same with Afghanistan. Instead they semi-installed and semi-elected corrupt officials. What's the point?

Right now we are just bribing the different sects not to blow each other up. That's right, we are spending all of our tax dollars and those tax dollars of our children to bribe these vicious killers.

The only good thing to come of all this will be a fully independent Iraqi Kurdistan. Hopefully in less than 5 years we will see this as a reality.

[Yala]

Originally Posted by wat0n

In a nutshell, I don't really care about Afghanistan (in the end it's their duty to build their country and it's their problem if they want to live in a 8th century theocracy or not, or if they even want to remain as a country or they'd rather separate into a lot of small states or whatever

That was our stance pre-911. The problem is they don't just stay in their own country wreaking havoc. As 9/11 proved, they will bring their 8th century crap right to our doorstep. By now though I think we proved bringing a war to them will not stop them either. What is needed is to bring our troops home and secure our border, which is basically open. We also need better screeners at airports, like Israel has, and better screening at the ports, etc. We could be spending the money at home securing our country rather than spending it on a useless war that will bear no fruit in the long term.

but I do care about nuclear Pakistan. With emphasis on nuclear.

Where was the world BEFORE Pakistan became nuclear? Asleep at the wheel as they are now with Iran. How many more fundamentalist unstable countries with nuclear weapons does this world need?

[Yala]

Originally Posted by I am David 2

Don't know. Can we win with the present troop count? Unlikely. However, a complete reversal to Taliban control could be disastrous, so at the very least, we should ensure that there is a central government with significant military control of the country, even if they lack total control. This could help prevent the creation of a complete safe haven for Al-Qaeda like it was before.

"Winning" in Afghanistan, meaning stabilizing and centralizing the country, so the Taliban has no significant presence, I think is impossible without many more troops (~300k) and funding, or a completely different grass roots oriented strategy. Neither of which will happen.

Afghanistan is not Nazi Germany. There is just no fixing the place and I think after 8 years this is clear as day. It's impossible with more troops or w/out. Didn't General McCrystal say it would take another 14 years to stabilize Afghanistan even with the extra 300k troops? 14 years!!!

[Achihud]

Originally Posted by Yala

There is just no fixing the place and I think after 8 years this is clear as day.

Maybe that is the good news?

If every muslim country would be as poor as Afghanistan, there would be peace for the rest of us. There would be no financial means left to continue and export jihad outside the islamic borders. They could explore the depths of 'islamic' hell to the heart's content on each other and only on each other and we wouldn't care.
I'm confident that day will come, it's still more than half a century away but it will come and islam as an encompassing final solution for all the world's illness will demise, if not implode all together.

[Aliyah1995]

To be honest, I don't feel it is for me to say either way. While, I have retained my American citizenship, I have tied my fate to Israel. Israel has been my home for 15 years, it is where my kids were born, and where I am raising my family. So, I don't feel like I have a right to say whether American soldiers should or should not be in Afghanistan anymore than I feel it is for Americans to say whether Israel has a right to attack Iran's nuclear facility if the need arises.

That being said, I have the utmost respect for American soldiers, wherever they serve, as I recognize America not only as an ally of Israel (disagreements we might have here and there), but one of the only other lights unto the nations of the world....

[Kachah]

Every war should have its objectives which are specific, achievable, measurable and time-bound. Now, what is the objective of our war in Afghanistan? If it is "to establish democracy" - and I haven't seen any alternative definition - then none of those conditions are met and we are set to lose with any number of troops. This is ridiculous - "let's turn Afghanistan into something like Denmark by force in 10 years". Who would buy that?
We need to forget about "democracy" and slapstick elections and narrow down on things like destroying Taliban by all available means, arresting/liquidaiting its leaders, disarming terrorists and totally de-militarizing the country. How long did the occupational force stay in Germany? in Japan? What makes us think that Afghanistan would take less?
I don't support the current war - because I have no idea what we are fighting for. We can't even stop Taliban recruiting new fighters.
It took USSR/Britain less than a month to occupy Iran in 1943 with a huge massive war effort elsewhere on their hands.

[serdar]

Do you support continuing the War in Afghanistan?

no more oil eh?
this war was a big mistake in the beginning.

[maven]

Originally Posted by serdar

no more oil eh?
this war was a big mistake in the beginning.

Yeah, it was pretty disgraceful the way the US and UK ripped off all that Afghan oil.

[Yala]

Originally Posted by serdar

no more oil eh?
this war was a big mistake in the beginning.

Afghanistan doesn't have oil, I think you imagined that.

The US and their allies entered Afghanistan to get rid of the Taliban and hoped it would become a democracy. They failed.

[shravan]

Originally Posted by Yala

Afghanistan doesn't have oil, I think you imagined that.

The US and their allies entered Afghanistan to get rid of the Taliban and hoped it would become a democracy. They failed.

The Taliban which was controlling Afghanistan was fully backed by Pakistan (ISI). When Western forces entered Afghanistan most of the top leaders went back to Pakistan.


Afghanistan Oil Connection

1993
US Oil companies reached for the estimated 200 billion barrels of oil in the Caspian Sea area. (Also:http://www.hri.org/MFA/thesis/winter98/geopolitics.html & http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/archive/ieo98/oil.html )


1997
US Congress passed a resolution declaring the Caspian and Caucasus region to be a “zone of vital American interests”.

Dec. 1997
Unocal invited Taliban representatives to their corporate headquarters in Sugarland, TX. to discuss the pipeline project. They were thereafter invited to Washington for meetings with Clinton Administration officials.

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Also Read Cheney's Defense Planning Guidance will help understand geopolitics...